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RE: The Rooster Crown (spoilers all RotE books) - Farseer - Jan-11-2011
We know that the Rooster Crown contains the anmas of past minstrels via the feathers they were honoured with/individually crafted. While I still have heaps of other things to make comment on re who does the honouring etc, I have suddenly found I have a slightly different take on the role of "minstrel" after my re-reading of AA, and also after reading Tintaglia's view of Selden in SOM.
In Chapter Nineteen, "Journey", the Chyurda sent out minstrels to meet the Six Duchies wedding delegation. The role of these minstrels or "hospitable ones" was to "greet guests and to make them glad they had come even before they arrived". As well as this, they told the history of their people via song, but this latter task is as much as we would traditionally expect any minstrel from within the realm to do.
I don't have SOM with me (my son has it down with him!) but Tintaglia called Selden her "little minstrel" due to the flattering, often sing-songy praise he tended to bestow upon her. When I first ever read this, I thought it an odd title, given that Selden wasn't really playing a musical instrument, truly singing or composing songs such as someone like Starling or Cockle etc did.
Putting the Chyurda definition into the mix, Selden seems to fulfill the role of minstrel well in that he greets Tintaglia and makes her glad she has come before she even arrives? He also sees her off with great flattery, making her glad that she had been?
It may be, then, that the minstrels in the Rooster Crown are not all "singing and dancing minstrels" but some may simply be those who flattered their dragon kin and that is why they were so honoured with the crafting of their feather?
RE: The Rooster Crown (spoilers all RotE books) - Farseer - Jul-28-2011
(Dec-19-2010, 03:40 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: Aside from this specific WP/Realder reincarnation aspect, which I hope to belatedly back up and address with my other RC thoughts one of these days, I would like to raise the question of reincarnation, and even incarnation, in general within the RotE.
While we are firmly given many afterlife-like examples of memory stone, liveships, the Skill River and Wit-bonds with animals as ways humans have of "living on" beyond the grave/a physical death, evidence of true "reincarnation" is much harder to find. Even so, I do believe that it exists within the RotE.
The BAD thing is that I can't refind the one passage/reference that clearly confirms it (at least to my way of thinking!). It's making me CRAZY that I can't place it after losing all of my notes due to a computer virus and despite a great deal of searching. I can't even remember which book it was in (!!) but it is definitely in either the Farseer or TM series as I recall it being specific to the Six Duchies.
While the only other passage that comes to my mind is a reference made by Nighteyes about having to always run ahead of Fitz to show him the way (this is just before he dies in FE, Chapter Twenty-Six, "Sacrifice"), though this latter passage may not conclusively point to "reincarnation" as such?Whatever it means, it certainly suggests to me that Nighteyes is talking here about running ahead to show him the way to their next shared life or form or SOMETHING, as he often had to do during their recent time together as well as in other past lives? Or do you think he is merely showing Fitz the way to death...that death is the way it should be and Fitz should embrace and accept it, not seek to prolong his life beyond its living?
Anyway, I thought I'd put it out there as one of you may remember the other reincarnation-suggestive passageand have something to contribute, or you may come across it while I am still looking. Tomorrow I plan to start yet another re-read of all books just so I can find it...this doing it in spits and spurts isn't working
!
Right! It's taken me, what, a bit over seven months and I have finally found at least one other passage that may or may not suggest reincarnation within the realm....but I don't think it likely.
Here I am in the midst of AQ during an entire RotE re-read (for the sole purpose of confirming the theory that reincarnation exists!) and where do I find it? In LST/SOM, while looking for something altogether different! 
To set the scene, Wintrow is ashore in Cress and he has come across the female slave who is fettered and bleeding from the loss of a child, and who requires the "comfort of Sa".
Quote:He positioned his fingers on the sides of her neck, spreading them until each one found its proper point. 'This is not death,' he assured her. 'I but free you from the distractions of this world so that your soul may prepare itself for the next. Do you assent to this?'
This continues as Wintrow hands over control of the woman's body to herself and she then chooses "to stop".
So, is this evidence of reincarnation?
The problem here for me is that Wintrow says next 'world', not next 'life' so it could be suggested that the lady is actually letting go and thus simply being absorbed into the Skill River (another world)...not unlike how Althea almost chose to let go while locked in Vivacia's cabin under Kyle's command, despite otherwise being in good health. I bring this Skill River possibility up as I believe Wintrow is using the Skill here (though he believes it to simply be the giving of Sa's comfort), to hand over the lady power over her own body. What she then does with this power is up to her. In this instance she chose to die but such a power is similar to that which Skilled ones have to heal themselves etc with, like Kettle.
If this is the case, while it is an after-life state, it can't really be a "true" (?) reincarnation as when one is lost to the Skill River, one is not truly aware so cannot be said to be living another life?
If it's not the case...?
I am sure there is something in Farseer or Tawny Man that does firmly state that reincarnation exists so...on with AQ!
RE: The Rooster Crown (spoilers all RotE books) - Farseer - Jul-30-2011
^ We are chatting about similar things/other possible reincarnation examples over in the Homecoming thread also.
A change of subject though...
When Amber first showed Paragon the Rooster Crown, and asked his permission if she could keep it, Paragon only noted it as being 'wood'. Why was this? Surely he knew that it was actually wizardwood (as we later had confirmed for us in TM). It's not like he didn't know what wizardwood looked like.
Of course, by only saying 'wood', it did leave it up in the air a little, I guess, until Lord Golden produced it again in Fool's Errand. A bit like Paragon also noting that it was decorated with 'chickens'?
RE: The Rooster Crown (spoilers all RotE books) - 'thul - Jul-30-2011
Paragon knew of his dragon ancestry and had given it up. Thus wizardwood is not of the same import to him as it is to flesh and blood dragons. Nor does he have The Tarman's interest in expansion. He has enough trouble with two dragons already to want parts of a third.
RE: The Rooster Crown (spoilers all RotE books) - Nuytsia - Aug-21-2011
(Jul-28-2011, 03:40 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: The problem here for me is that Wintrow says next 'world', not next 'life' so it could be suggested that the lady is actually letting go and thus simply being absorbed into the Skill River (another world)...not unlike how Althea almost chose to let go while locked in Vivacia's cabin under Kyle's command, despite otherwise being in good health. I bring this Skill River possibility up as I believe Wintrow is using the Skill here (though he believes it to simply be the giving of Sa's comfort), to hand over the lady power over her own body. What she then does with this power is up to her. In this instance she chose to die but such a power is similar to that which Skilled ones have to heal themselves etc with, like Kettle.
If this is the case, while it is an after-life state, it can't really be a "true" (?) reincarnation as when one is lost to the Skill River, one is not truly aware so cannot be said to be living another life?
This was also reminiscent of when they lost Kennit after his leg was amputated by Wintrow - in fact I think Vivacia also says 'he stopped'. I think Wintrow says something like he died because he and Vivacia convinced him not to be afraid of death; of letting go. I'm not sure where Kennit is going when he dies - his consciousness just kind of wafts off, but then he is taken in by Vivacia before we can find out any more.
(Jul-30-2011, 06:50 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: When Amber first showed Paragon the Rooster Crown, and asked his permission if she could keep it, Paragon only noted it as being 'wood'. Why was this? Surely he knew that it was actually wizardwood (as we later had confirmed for us in TM). It's not like he didn't know what wizardwood looked like.
Of course, by only saying 'wood', it did leave it up in the air a little, I guess, until Lord Golden produced it again in Fool's Errand. A bit like Paragon also noting that it was decorated with 'chickens'?
I haven't re-read that bit yet, but it sounds like a typical Paragon reply! Trying to keep his secrets again?
Hah the chickens thing reminds me of Althea seeing the Khuprus crest and describing it as looking like 'a chicken wearing a hat'
RE: The Rooster Crown (spoilers all RotE books) - Lady Persephone - Mar-22-2019
(Jul-20-2010, 06:00 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: Ah, my favourite of all 'things' in the Realm of the Elderlings books - the Rooster Crown.I've thought about this a lot . . I think it's one of the most profound, intriguing mysteries in all of RotE! The Rooster Crown. This quote: "For a moment, my eyes lingered on the softened carvings of roosters' heads that ringed the crown....Tiny gems still winked in two of the carved eyes; the others were blank and empty." Earlier it was only one that still seemed to wink, wasn't it? Before the Fool died. Because of this I feel that the two winking gems signifies the presence of the Fool in the crown via his blood . . blood, after all, remembers. I do think the winking of the gems in a wizardwood crown does have a relation to the winking of the memory stones on the Aslevjal map. It just has to mean something. It's too huge a coincidence to not have a larger significance.
I have lots to throw at you but I'm going to start out small and toward the end rather than the beginning! To set the scene, Fitz and Fool are near the market plaza beyond the Mountain Kingdom. Fitz has the completed crown in his hands and Fool is dead beside him...
"For a moment, my eyes lingered on the softened carvings of roosters' heads that ringed the crown....Tiny gems still winked in two of the carved eyes; the others were blank and empty."
We know that within the crown, there were five minstrels - a freckled girl/young woman, a bull-throated man, a toothless crone, a young man and a calm, husky-voiced woman. The gems can't represent them or else five gems would wink, wouldn't they, and not just two?
As an aside, the runes in the Aslevjal map tower which winked and "seemed to glow with an inner light...some bright, some dull" represented Skill-pillars.
So, what (or who
Reincarnation . . yes. I agree with Farseer that it does exist in this realm. I've ordered the Legends II book now!
I'm mixed on whether or not Realder = Fitz and the female WP of yore = Fool, but the fact that she winked at him, and we know Fool recognised himself in this WP with the rooster crown . . she did know Fitz, I'm certain of it. I don't think Fitz is Realder . . I don't believe that was Realder she was winking at . . Quote:When Fool and Fitz were at the plaza, Fitz saw a girl walking with a crown of vine leaves on her head (AQ Chapter Twenty-Nine - The Rooster Crown): "A girl crowned with a twist of green vine came through the crowd, glancing back over her shoulder at someone. I swear she caught my eye and winked at me."
We don't really know how the memory stone really affects the WP. There's something to the WP anatomy . . almost akin to dragons. They shed, they are long-lived, they have special foresight not unlike the 'prophet' false eyes on Maulkin, the Fool could live for ages with the silver on his hand, WP's have glamour not unlike dragons . . there are way too many similarities here.
Quote:Who was this woman? Why could she not only appear to see Fitz but be familiar enough with him to wink?It was Beloved/Fool. He/she could take on this former WP and I think could affect or change their actions at will, unlike humans and Elderlings (i.e. Thymara and Rapskal), who could not. The wink was to let Fitz know it was Fool, like a little knowing gesture to let him know it's him/her and he should follow. At this point in the story Fool is very much a teenager, like Fitz, and the familial gesture is so like him/her. I must buy the Farseer trilogy (borrowed it from my co-worker when I read them) and I'd love to go back and compare/contrast with all the knowledge I have all having read nearly all of RotE trilogies. I recall that Fool brazenly admitted his/her unabashed love for Fitz and kissed him at one point much to Fitz's confusion (that boy wouldn't know real love if it struck him as a bolt of lightening!). But I digress . .
I do think reincarnation is real in this realm and in the Fool's case, this was probably him/herself in a former life. As for Fitz, again, I don't think this was himself as Realder. That's not to say there wasn't 'someone else' there in the crowd, say, an Elderling . . perhaps the Elderling known as Farseer if such a person existed, and I think they did, probably one of those adept in the skill of 'healing' as we find out in RWC that it was one of the lost skills of the ancient race.