(Apr-14-2011, 04:57 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: Hmm...therapeutic...that's an interesting take on things, Mervi, and not a reason for fan fic that I would ever have thought of without input from someone else. Thanks for sharing that!

[...]

Having been working for some time on my own novel, using key issues that I have directly taken from my own childhood, I don't believe an awful experience in life, no matter how terrible, gives anyone permission to directly use or follow on from a story or characters that have already been created. Certainly, there are many similar plots and characters, even in 'literature', that are based on true life or even pre-existing storylines or characters eg biblical or religious themes, historical people or locations etc, but...that's different!

(Apr-18-2011, 06:59 PM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: Ah, another aspiring writer. Be sure to let us know of any progress, I'll be sure to read it if you manage to get it published. (Btw, this is not meant as a slight towards your writing abilities - getting published is very hard. Even a book like Harry Potter has been rejected multiple times.)

(Apr-18-2011, 06:59 PM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: As for the therapy theory... this might be true in some cases, but scratch "apparently" - I am 99% positive that the story is meant to be arousing.

(Apr-20-2011, 01:21 PM (UTC))danieladamsmith Wrote: Oh Farseer...I think I am a very big fan of yours already.

(Apr-20-2011, 01:21 PM (UTC))danieladamsmith Wrote: This is the right forum.

Robin Hobb Wrote:I'm always surprised when the fanfiction rant comes up. People seem to put it at the heart of me when it is actually something that is very peripheral to my writing life. I'll mention that when it was taken up and transplanted all over the internet, it lost some of its context. Originally, to read it, you had to find the attic door in my internet home, and then get past the mad woman with the red shoe. There was a warning that over the top rants were ahead, and I approached those rants with an element (I thought) of over the top humor. Obviously, I should not try to write humor!

Last night, to save time, I cut and pasted a response I recently wrote to a young writer who asked me this same question. I'll do that again now. I'll warn you, it's pretty long:

Thank you for your thoughtful letter. I am happy to explain my feelings on fan fiction.

First of all, if it is done with the original author's consent, then I have no objection to it. That, I think, is up to every author.

I do not consent to it for my work. Here is why. My name, and the names of my books and characters are my reputation in the writing world. When people write bad fan fiction ( as in bad writing: incorrect grammar, spelling, no plot, etc) and then attach 'Robin Hobb' Or "Farseer trilogy' or 'Fitz and the Fool' tags to it, they are attaching my name to bad writing. That isn't fair to me when I have carefully done my best to put my very best work out there. Maybe my very best sometimes has some mistakes or bad writing, but they are my mistakes or bad writing. I am willing to take responsibility for that. But not for someone else's bad writing. If they are still learning, that is fine. But why must they attach their fledgling work to my name and characters.

Even if I set bad writing aside, I do not like it when people write fan fiction that makes it seem I approve of behaviors I find appalling. So much of fan fiction is written about sex! I write sex scenes into my book when they advance the plot or tell something important about the characters.

There are some kinds of sex scenes I would never write. I would never write about an adult having sex with a much younger person, and it being romantic and wonderful. No. That is rape, because no child can fully give consent. If I wrote that scene for a story, I would make it plain that the young victim was being exploited and deceived. If I wrote any sort of a forced sexual encounter, then I never write it salaciously from the point of view of the rapist. I never write a scene like that as if it could be justified. Yet I have seen fan fiction about Burrich having sex with Fitz while he is a youngster in Burrich's care. I am horrified. Burrich would never do that, nor would it be okay and romantic! Yet there it is, out on the internet, with my name and my character names attached to it, as if I approve of child rape or think it could be romantic!

But it isn't just those sorts of sex scenes. One person sent me a fan fiction in which Fitz beats Molly bloody because she didn't 'wait' for him. Wait for a dead man? Does that makes sense? Beat bloody someone you love? Oh, yeah, I'm sure that is so romantic. Worst of all? In the end of that fan fiction Molly APOLOGIZES and still wants to be with Fitz! WHAT? Those are NOT my characters. Neither Molly nor Fitz would behave that way.

So, why did someone write that story and put the names of my characters into it, and add my name to the description? I don’t understand at all. If people want to write those stories, why don't they make up their own characters, ones who would actually do those things, and then sign their own personal real name to it. Why are they happy to attach my professional name to a story like that, but not add their own real name to it? If you are proud of your work, sign it. If you are not proud of it, why are you putting it out there?

As you can see, there are many aspects of fan fiction that I just don't understand at all.

This part of my letter is about YOU, and I think it is the most important part of my letter to you.

Now, if you are twelve and want to be a writer, here is something I really want you to know now. You will not live forever. I know that sounds like doom and gloom, but I am 59 years old now, and I know that I do not have forever to write all the books I want to write. As each year passes, I know it more and more. It takes me a year to write a book. So, if I can still think clearly and type when I am 70, I can write about ten more books. And that's all, even if I have a hundred stories in my head and a thousand characters shouting, 'write me next, write me next'. So, if I use my time now to write Buffy the Vampire fan fiction, then I am not writing my own unique stories that no one else knows or can write. And that is one more book or story by me that you will never read.

Strange as it may seem, that is also true for you. There are stories inside you, right now, that only you can write. And you should write them while you are twelve years old. You should not wait until you have a degree in writing or until you are out of school or have a holiday to write. You should write every day right now. Because the story inside you, and how you will write it while you are twelve is unique. It will NEVER come back to you. Maybe you will write it when you are 25, but it won't be the same story. You'll be a different man then, and the things that fire your imagination right now may seem pale and cold then. Right now, at twelve, you see the world in a certain way. You know more about being twelve years old in 2011 than any research will ever teach me. So, even if you are writing in a fantasy world, you are carrying that your own personal to you, twelve year old Point of View into you fiction. It's a precious thing. Maybe you can't publish it or don't want friends to see it. Maybe you can't even finish the story. (I think I wrote about 5000 stories when I was a kid. I think I finished 3.) But you can squirrel it away in a safe place. When you come back to it, maybe when you are 59 years old, it's like a time capsule. You will remember everything so vividly from your own writing. And when you want to write a 12 year old character, there you have it: essence of twelve years old, carefully preserved over the years. No one else can give that to your future writer self. Only you. Believe me, even if you think what you are writing is junk, when you come back to it, the diamonds hidden in the junk will gleam for you. And they will be absolutely and uniquely your own.

But if what you write is a fan fiction, then you lose a lot of that. Your writing will be in a straight jacket as you try to jam your story into my world. And my characters will be torqued as you twist your characters into the outer shape of my characters. It will come out like one of those horrible school exercises: write a different ending to this story.

When you read a book or story and it makes you dream of other stories about those characters, please make them your own. Think of why you want to write that story. Does Fitz, for example, make a different decision than he does in my story? Good. That shows he is not Fitz at all! Write a different character, one who would logically make that sort of decision in the world you made. Writers do this all the time. They are inspired, they take what inspires them, file off the serial numbers, and make it new. When you do that, you learn the real skills of writing, which is creating a setting, creating your characters and having a plot. Fan fiction skips all that.

Here's a great example. Zorro and Batman.(Original, old Zorro from 1920's) Zorro inspired the creator of Batman. You can see the ways they are similar, you can see where Batman's creator started: Both characters have no super powers. They dress in black, wear masks, and by day they are wealthy, sophisticated men. Zorro/Don Diego pretends to be foppish, lazy and shallow. Some of the early Bruce Waynes were like that, too. Zorro has the magnificent black stallion he rides. Batman has the Batmobile. When Zorro escapes, he rides to his hacienda, where vines conceal a secret entry cellar door to the place where he stables his horse. Like the Batcave. Then he goes up a secret passageway to an office in his house where he keeps his notes and costumes, etc. Just like Batman. Zorro has no super powers, only his courage. Just like Batman.

But Batman is NOT fan fiction. It was inspired by the original story but it does not slavishly ape it. He doesn't carve a letter B on evildoers. Nor does Bruce Wayne annoy his girl friends with terrible magic tricks, as Don Diego does! Both Batman and Zorro can stand alone. Even if you've never seen a Zorro movie or read the book, Batman is complete and makes sense. Most fan fiction makes no sense to someone who hasn't read the original. And even if all Zorro movies and stories were accidentally destroyed, Batman could continue undiminished. Fan fiction often vanishes over the years. Do you read fan fiction about Xena the warrior princess or Vincent's Pride? Or Man From Uncle fan fiction? As those TV franchises were cancelled and faded, the fan fiction attached to them lost audience and relevance.

Well, I'm not getting my work done this way, so I have to end this. Thank you for a thoughtful letter. I hope you can understand my point of view on fan fiction, even if you continue to disagree with it. I don't demand that my friends agree with me on everything! Often I get very angry letters in which it seems the person is just SO OFFENDED that my opinion of fan fiction is different from his own that all he can think of to do is scream at me. So I welcome the sort of dialogue you invited.

And I wish you every success in your pursuit of writing, no matter how you choose to go about it.

Robin Hobb

(And now you know why I conceal my address. It's because when I am interested in a person's thoughts, I get caught up in writing horribly long letters . . . .)

The interview

Butterscotch Sundae interview
by *doctordapples

Most articles that speak of pornography like to fall back on the famous quote that Associate Justice Potter Stewart made about knowing it when he sees it. However, for this article I am less interested in its definition, and more with its acceptance, and so for that I refer to a quote from the 1960s musical satirist Tom Lehrer: "I do have a cause. It is obscenity. I'm for it." He goes on to say that the real argument against obscenity is for the freedom of pleasure, which is unfortunately not covered by the Constitution, a fair enough point no matter how you choose to slice "the pursuit of happiness".

The quote is one that applies to myself both as a person and as a brony. Of course, in today's society it is difficult to make that claim and still find yourself considered to be in polite society. I find it easy to say in this environment, but were I to announce myself pro-pornography, much less pro-clopfiction (clop being the widespread if technically inaccurate term for pony self-pleasure), on my Facebook page in the face of my closest friends and family, I would ultimately be expected to defend what I feel is a perfectly rational position.

Keep in mind, I am not necessarily defending the porn industry, and I am most certainly not defending some of the practices that result in unfair treatment of those within its parameters. I am however, a proponent of free speech and the pursuit of pleasure, and I believe that sex of any kind between two (or more) consenting adults is a personal matter that should be kept out of the hands of the government or moral crusaders.

And so we narrow our focus and turn ourselves to the very idea of sex in our culture. Sex has gained an unfair notoriety against other "adult" concepts like language and violence. Violence on television is as American as apple pie. Criminal procedurals remain the staple of network television, and the presence of large amounts of violence and language no longer necessarily condemns a film to an R rating. Sex is given a much shorter leash. This fact strikes especially odd considering that unlike the other two, sex is an actual primal need that has remained intact through the ages. Not everyone remembers their first violent film, but the moment you recognize yourself as a sexual being can be a massive turning point for any individual.

For myself, it was thanks to television, specifically the late-night programming of HBO, which made me recognize that there was an immense world out there worth exploring, but which I had no knowledge of. While the Internet has made this world easily accessible for many, it can easily be argued that it has trivialized just how complex this exploration can be. When I was a little colt and the sun was going down, the Internet was not yet particularly efficient, and I had to find a different avenue: the written word. To this day, I remain impressed by how effective good erotic writing can be at delivering a truly memorable experience.

So now we turn to the bronies: the unintended but enthusiastic audience for a cartoon about magical talking ponies. We have embraced the characters, the stories, the songs, and the artwork. We've built stories upon the stories that we were given, and those stories have stretched into every aspect of the human (and equine) experience. There have been stories about joy, grief, fun, sorrow, accomplishment, failure, birth, and death. We have seen fluffy tales about hugging and friendship, and we have simultaneously witnessed cruel depravity and torture. And appropriately enough for a show that wears its admiration of friendship on its sleeve, we have read about love. And while love from the perspective of a child may be a more simplistic affair, to an older brony, the definition is more complex. And in stories, as in real life, love mixes with our sexuality.

The literary channel of romance (as seen through the lens of a Friendship is Magic fan) is a wide one. The Sensual Fiction Collection does a very good job of spanning this divide, beginning at innocent kisses and nuzzles, then running through all of the bases, all the way to the home plate of full tilt clopfiction. Moving further on to those with a, shall we say, more esoteric taste, you have the works at the less heavily-modded FiMchan.

At any given moment, there exists an invisible line perceivable only to the reader. This line marks the exact moment where the romance proceeds into clopfiction. And it is on this line that you will find Butterscotch Sundae, nimbly dancing from side to side.

Her ponysona is fairly easy to recognize: a brown-coated unicorn with yellow "boots" over her hooves, and with an ever-present rose in her tri-colored mane. Her cutie mark is identical to her namesake. Her real-life identity, on the other hand, has been kept well under wraps. She's in her 30s, and is from Australia (perhaps Sydney). The name she uses in her recent "Adventures in Equestria", Connie Hayden, is not her real name. Given her talent for language, it is no surprise that she is a schoolteacher.

I'd be lying if I didn't claim to feel some kinship with Butterscotch. Both of us spend a great deal of time writing about ponies, we both have unicorns for ponysonas, and we both share a penchant for an alcoholic cider known in her homeland as scrumpy: a strong apple-flavored liquor known in the states by an extremely brony-friendly name: applejack.

How do you feel about this interview?

I'm very excited to have the chance to talk about my writing outside of DeviantArt and the *chans. Up till recently, I didn't feel like I'd have anything much to say in an interview, but after being approached by a number of new writers and asked questions about my writing, I realised that some people are probably interested in the process and how I personally feel about it – so thanks for the opportunity, doctordapples!

What is your initial reaction to the word "clopfiction"?

Laughter! It's an adorable expression. I remember the first time I saw that image macro of Twi sitting at a computer, her forehooves out of sight beneath the desk, with the sound-words "clop clop clop" and I remember thinking – that's totally adorable. And then that other macro came out with an angry Twi saying "I can't clop to this!" and after that pony-themed fapfiction started being called "clopfiction", and I just totally jumped on board with the expression, because it's cute, and frivolous, and overall gives the kind of feeling I want to produce with my work – light hearted, fun, enjoyable, escapist - that sort of thing. It's what's at the heart of the whole pony fandom, after all. A love of the innocent, the playful, the uplifting – I mean, what's not to love about magical, colourful ponies whose lives revolve around throwing parties, going on adventures, eating sweets and sometimes enjoying moderately hot lesbian sex –well, at least that's what I imagine they do, anyway.

Do YOU read it?

Some of it! As you might expect, I have a preference for the light, fluffy, funny stuff. I won't mention specific authors, since I'm sure I'll leave someone out and that's something I definitely don't want to do. But if you write funny pony-themed erotic and/or pornographic stories which don't take themselves too seriously, chances are I've read them and enjoyed them! The "taking themselves too seriously" bit is very important – as soon as I feel manipulated or the "art" becomes too dominating and obvious or the author's personality comes through too much I just lose all interest. The mood is gone, so to speak. My favourite stories are by far the ones where the writer's love for the characters and their joy in writing about them comes through.

What is the purpose of clopfiction (aside from the obvious)?

What's the obvious purpose? As a masturbatory aid?
(Ed note: In retrospect, I regret that parenthetical)
Well, aside from that, I find the whole enjoyment of writing and reading clopfiction is the sensory and intellectual stimulation it gives you (well, me at least) – I mean, there are these characters that you've seen having all these adventures on your TV or computer screen and who you can talk about to other people as if they're real friends you have in common and in this way give them a kinda quasi-reality, and so the thought that these adorable characters having sexual adventures is definitely very appealing and titillating. I mean, how would these colourful, magical ponies behave when having sex in a way that's true to the original show? What would sex be like in the Friendship is Magic universe? What would Pinkie say to Dash while they're lying in bed together? What would it take to get them there in the first place? It's all a wonderful mental exercise to work this out, and to create situations where people will read it and go "Wow! That's so in character – I can imagine it happening, even though I know I'll never see it happen in a real episode... and that makes it super-hot!"

It's the reason why I try to keep my stories true to the Friendship is Magic universe, and the characters in character. As soon as you're writing stuff which is out of character, or even worse "a caricature" of the actual show, it loses any appeal, any hotness it might have had (at least to me), and the story might as well have been an original work. So your character has the name "Twilight Sparkle" and she's doing stuff to a character called "Pinkie Pie" – if it's not in character, or not in universe, it strikes me as pretty much totally pointless. You lose the appeal of the original work and it becomes largely a parody, often one that takes itself too seriously.

PERSONAL QUESTION ALERT: How much does ones own sexuality come into play? How much of it reaches the page?

I think you would have to be an absolute genius writer to be able to write about something not based on at least a kernel of personal experience and have it sound believable. Everything I've written has at least a bit of personal experience in it somewhere, but some of my stories have a lot! – you'll forgive me if I leave out any specifics.

But if you read my stories, you can get a general idea of what I like and what interests me – there's also some fantasy there, though, and a lot of experimenting with things through writing about them as well. Just for an example, Twilight and Trixie spend a lot of time wrestling around in mud and oil in "The Luxury Lotus Spa Follies", but that kind of messy play isn't a thing I've ever been into personally. I CAN understand its appeal, though, and I hope that the way in which I wrote it demonstrates this understanding and that people reading the story who do genuinely enjoy it will have it ring true for them and find it authentic and stimulating.

I think people very often find it hard to separate the author's private life and their work. For example, after I wrote "Here's to you Miss Pinkamina Pie", my Pinkie-Spike story, I remember being surprised at how many people complimented me on being able to write hetero scenes as well as lesbian ones, as if I was using some incredible feat of imagination to craft them out of thin air (I found these comments very flattering, by the way!). Around the same time I read somewhere on the Internet (one of the chans I think) that I was "most likely 100% queer", and I'm still not exactly sure why people think that (maybe it's all the lesbian shipping stories I've written LOL!) . But just to set the record straight, the hetero scenes in my fiction are not just the product of 100% pure imagination. And I'll just leave it at that.

Ed. note: There is something inherently ridiculous about the assumption that since the greater percentage of Butterscotch's stories are filly/filly that it necessarily means she is obsessed with lesbianism. The show simply does not have many developed male characters. The two most seen male characters are respectively, a child and a pony who usually only has one line.

Some authors don't like the ideas of fillyfoolery or coltcuddling, not because they're homophobes, but because they feel it imposes our segregationist society on a fantasy world based on friendship and love. Thoughts?

I call it colt canoodling myself! Anyway, I think individuals having issues with homosexuality would be common to any society where standard mammalian reproduction operates. Also, without the concept of some ponies being prejudiced towards fillyfooling, there would have been no conflict within Dash in my story "The Party Hasn't Ended", and the story couldn't have been written - so I have a selfish reason for allowing it to exist. And finally, the discussion of contemporary issues is a major part of fiction – it's not just pure escapism all the time after all! Humans will always write about things that concern humans, even if we'd like to imagine that the magical little ponies of Equestria have evolved past such problems.

Any stories you would recommend?

Have a look on Equestria Daily, and don't just look at 5-star or 6-star stories. Read any of them that sound interesting! There are lots of gems there languishing at 4 or even 3 stars. Also, some good stories never get sent to Equestria Daily, so check out the DA MLP fan groups, especially http://mlp-pony-tales.deviantart.com/ which has the fanfiction ordered into different genres so that it's easy to find what you're looking for. Oh, and the Ponyfiction Archive! http://www.ponyfictionarchive.net/

Thanks for giving me the chance to talk about my work, doctordapples!

Love,
Butterscotch Sundae

(Dec-27-2011, 02:36 PM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: Just to add some spice to this discussion,

(Dec-27-2011, 02:36 PM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: Yes, that does sound creepy.

(Dec-27-2011, 02:36 PM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: I've read a couple of her fics and yes, it's deeply weird.

(Dec-27-2011, 02:36 PM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: Just a new angle that might be interesting.