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+--- Thread: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man (/thread-64.html)
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Nuytsia - Apr-13-2010
Interesting thoughts Chrischa.
Re the forging issue. Although I'm not sure I have it all worked out, I do agree that it seems the intention of the person is important. It seems like you can choose what you are putting into the stone in some circumstances. Those circumstances when you cannot choose seem to be people who are 'forced' to do it. From memory, we don't actually get to 'see' how this occurs, except when the Pale Woman forces it upon the Fool. However, I am curious as to whether he would have had some control over what he put into the stone dragon at that time, as he had previous experience with this type of thing. I'm assuming the people we see 'Forged' - like in the previous trilogy - didn't know what was happening and had no way of controlling it.
The other thing I wonder about is whether the Fool got back whatever he DID put into the dragon then, as I think he was dead when that dragon was 'killed' (and all the other Forged people got their emotions back).
I also wonder whether the Fool put anything of his own pain into Girl on a Dragon in FF, despite Fitz warning him not to.
Poor old Girl on a Dragon!!!! They don't seem to think anything of putting all their crap there!
I'm still not 100% sure why Forged people in the first trilogy go so beserk. I thought it meant that the emotion attached to memories is removed. I don't quite make the connection to why you'd become quite so barbaric without that. I think something like the Vulcans in Star Trek - ok it's not the same thing, but they are nowhere near going beserk, quite the opposite.
The thing that annoyed me most about Fitz after he gets his emotions back from GOAD is that he then seems to forget all that has occurred in the whole second trilogy. I understand that we are supposed to think he is sort of overwhelmed by the immediacy of the 'new' emotions (although this seems to apply only to his love for Molly, not so much all that pain he put in there both re betrayal and physical torture!) It made me sick to think this was implying all those events of the second trilogy somehow had little meaning for him (because he was 'part forged')?? Is this what it meant to imply?
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Sai Jackal - Apr-13-2010
Which is how I felt, and based on what Robin has said, I felt that way because she initially never intended for it to happen.
I agree with what you're saying Chrischa in terms of, time spent vs what you actually give to the memory stone. However where we differ is that I think Fitz did make something of his life with Nighteyes. It may have been simple, but it was peaceful, and according to Robin what he had always wanted.
Personally Fitz felt betrayed by a lot of those people he had left behind, and to some degree or another had been a tool for all of them. Nothing from them comes without baggage. So I'm hardly surprised he never sought them out.
It isn't just Fitz and Chade being friends, it's Fitz the Assassins apprentice, and Chade his mentor/teacher. With Chade still expecting unyielding loyalty from Fitz. With Kettricken, she resolved to take his child, and pretend it was her own, taking her away from her life with Burrich and Molly. Even though we knew based on the Fools impressions of the future, that this would indeed kill Nettle. Then there is Burrich, with fitz's memories of Molly, even after deciding to not return to her, are we to believe after seeing Burrich and Molly fall in love that Fitz interrupts that? What of the life that Burrich and Molly had decided to have? To get married?
So the feelings of the memories or not, for me it seems quite certain much would have went as it did.
As for your opinions of Molly. I would say that Burrich and Molly were passionate about each other, based on the scene that Fitz witnessed between Molly And Burrich, I thought there was more than convenience to her feelings for him. I recall a scene where Molly told Fitz something along the lines of Burrich being the best thing to come out of those stables, and talking of how the women all found him attractive, it seemed very clear Molly shared this view. She also doesn't strike me as a Woman who loves someone because it makes her life easier, she appears much too stubborn for that.
Ultimately it doesn't make me feel as if there was less to Burrich and Mollys love, but instead, the ending made me feel as if there was less to Fitz's life.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Chrischa - Apr-16-2010
(Apr-13-2010, 11:27 AM (UTC))Sai Jackal Wrote: I would say that Burrich and Molly were passionate about each other, based on the scene that Fitz witnessed between Molly And Burrich, I thought there was more than convenience to her feelings for him.
Wait, I think you misunderstood me a bit. A marriage for convenience is an expression with a lot of ugly baggage, and that isn't quite what I meant. I'm only saying that their love was different from the passionate love between teenagers, that it was more based on need and affection for a friend, and that they married because at that time it seemed like the best choice to make. Later on it will have developed into real love and a good marriage. I think Burrich had a crush on Mollly, hence her words on that night they decided to marry, but for Molly it might have been more the need for protection and safety.
I'm certainly not saying that it was a loveless marriage!!
You're right in saying that Fitz might not have wanted to seek out his old friends because that would come with a lot of obligations, Even seeking out Patience would have been awkward because five minutes after recovering from the shock she would have started planning for Fitz to be restored to his 'rightful place'.
Both for her and Burrich, the guild that Fitz makes them live with certainly doesn't weight up to the inconvenience of them having to find a place for him in their lives. But that's his choice and he makes a lot of bad choices in all that.
Aside from all that, though, I was more talking about the fact that in his reclusion, he doesn't built up any new relationships with people. Hap was brought to him, and with Jinna it was almost scary how afraid he was of bonding with another human being.
Where my whole theory falls apart is in how much love and friendship he manages to give Hap without that boy ever noticing that something is missing in his adoptive father. But since Hap never knew Fitz before GOAD, that too can be easily explained.
Some excellent points from Nuytsia as well (love you nickname btw)
. You're right, he does seem to sweep a lot of his 'second' life under the table when he gets his memory back. I hope too that RH didn't mean to imply that those events didn't have any impact on him... we see nothing else in the series that indicates that people who give their life freely to dragons cannot built up new emotions. Quite the opposite because it was the new knowledge of having a heir that allowed Verity to complete his dragon, wasn't it? As for the Forged ones being possessed with rage, that's a very interesting point. Surely if they are completely empty it could result in apathy as much as in rage. Fitz says they are worse then animals for even they care for a certain morality when pursuing their needs. Forged ones care about nothing but to sate their own immediate needs, with no thoughts for anything beyond that.
I always assumed that Forged ones are so violent because the last act committed to them was an act of extreme violence, and it sort of lingers. And didn't the Pale Woman instill the thought in them to seek out Verity? Could she have likewise left them with nothing but rage? She does seem to have developed forging to a fine art... .
She's the most horrible person in the entire series and yet it was scary how reasonable her argument sounded when she tried to convince Fitz to join her in Fool's Fate. But debating that might be more something for your new Tawny Man thread, Nuytsia.
BTW; Vulcans feel great emotions, they only repress them. But that's an entirely different can of worms.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Nuytsia - Apr-18-2010
Heheh I suspected the Vulcan reference might have been a shaky analogy when I wrote it! (I'm not deeply knowledgeable on Star Trek) But it was the first thing that occurred to me!
Hmmm yes the Forged ones violence could have been something deliberately instilled in them by the PW - I hadn't thought of that.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Farseer - Apr-22-2010
When I finished FF, I left it feeling exactly as I did when I finished DK and awaited the next installment that eventually came to be DH...that the story was still only half told and that there was "plenty" more to come.
It wasn't an ending to me, and could never be as long as Changer was alive...as Fool himself attested, Fitz was and always would be the catalyst. The final chapter was only the final chapter of the book, not the final chapter of the story...just a pause, a mid-point.
Much has been made of the Fool's departure but as I always thought of the Fool as the love that weaved in and out of Fitz's life (and not Molly), I thought his absence (using the term 'his' very loosely!) was to be expected, as was an eventual return, despite the possibility that Robin may never wish to go back and write about this return and was, instead, content to keep us thinking on it. To me, it is of no consequence...it will happen...this moment in time has just been during a period of Fool's 'weaving out'.
It is so true-to-life in a way...we were introduced to Fitz when he was six and we've been a part of his life up until his eventual reunion with Molly and the second departure of the Fool...to me he became a friend whose life story I watched from the sidelines while I lived my own. He may leave my life for a time and I find myself wondering "I miss Fitz. Whatever happened to him?" but I know he's still out there.
How many friends have we ever had in our true lives who have gone away from us for a time and then returned, or never returned? Our story, nor theirs, didn't end on their departure. We all still went on living but were not connected with each other. At the moment we are disconnected to Fitz and may never come across him again...that is up to Robin...but that doesn't mean he will live happily ever after with Molly and nor does it mean that there's nothing left for him to do. He is Changer and while he is alive, possibilities multiply...
Regardless of the male/female debate, Fitz loves Fool and Fool completes him, makes him feel whole. It is in his nature to care for Fool and he puts his life at risk to help him. Even Fitz's seemingly small choices in regard to the Fool have had significant consequences. A telling example of this would be when Fitz chose to go back to Aslevjal to return Fool to Buckkeep. Prior to his departure, Chade addressed him as "King Fitz" and later, after returning from his extended stay within the Witness Stones (for want of a better way to put it), Fitz laughed about Chade reverting back to calling him Lord FitzChivalry. He said something like, "Lord FitzChivalry? I thought I was to be a king." A small change but to what consequence?
I wasn’t happy with the ending because there was no ending. Neither was I happy with the pause (Robin's stories are too good to want to come across a pause!) BUT I was content with the possibilities that the pause wrought, and hope we get to hear about them some more...directly via Buckkeep and Fitz or indirectly via gossip from the Rain Wilds, I don’t mind which!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - maulkin - Jun-07-2010
Just some random (somewhat geeky) thoughts on Fitz and Molly. The Fool refers to Fitz as a catalyst. In a chemical reaction, a catalyst lowers the energy required for the reaction to take place, often by bringing the participating components of the reaction together and hence making a specific change more likely to occur. However, although it promotes change, the catalyst itself is not changed. It emerges from the reaction in exactly the same state in which it entered it. Perhaps, this is what Hobb was aiming for in Fitz's story. At the end of Fool's Fate, various momentous events have occurred and history has shifted into a new cycle but Fitz has been returned essentially to where he started, before he met the Fool.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Nuytsia - Jun-07-2010
Good lord I can't believe I never thought to consider the literal definition of catalyst and the analogy to Fitz!
Whoa good thinking, yes the catalyst is itself not changed. Hmmm nice one!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Farseer - Jun-07-2010
I knew the literal meaning and never thought to connect the two
. Very sad really, epsecially as my son has recently completed a HUGE chemistry assignment based on, you guessed it, catalysts! Of course I instantly thought of Fitz when he began the assignment but then didn't take the next step and consider how it may apply. Fitz's role is to create change, not be changed...yes, GOOD ONE, maulkin...I love it!! Bring on the geekness, I'm off to share this with my kids!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Farseer - Jun-08-2010
This thought bears significance not only with regard to Fitz's role in the Farseer and Tawny Man books, but also any role he may or may not have in future books. It is so simple when applied to the definition in this way and, as the readers, we were maddeningly given all of the info we needed to make this connection very early on (the naming ceremony and all of Fool's conversations regarding 'the catalyst'), which makes it even more mind-blowing. Just goes to prove that Robin knows very well where she's headed with it all...
I can't help but notice the 'cat' in catalyst now either!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Nuytsia - Jun-08-2010
I'm glad I'm not the only one who had a 'duh'! moment when I read maulkin's post hehehehe