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+--- Thread: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man (/thread-64.html)
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Syrocko - Jun-28-2010
I'm afraid that I haven't had time to read everything written so far in this thread, but have managed a good deal of it. I really just wanted to voice my surprise that so many people seem to dislike the ending. Me, my girlfriend and my Mum have all finished the books, and all of us found the ending very satisfying.
Yes, Kettle did explain to Fitz that he loved the idea of him and Molly more than the reality, but he did not agree. I also find it perfectly plausible that old and wise as she was, she could not see all of Fitz and misjudged the relationship. I've always liked the character of Molly, and suspect that many people dislike her mostly because she was so often angry with Fitz in ways which we know he does not fully deserve. But I didn't find her unreasonable when considering the situation she found herself in, and respected her for not being a push-over despite her love for Fitz. Despite having good reasons, he did keep a lot of secrets from her, and messed her around in all sorts of ways. He could not properly explain to her how and why many of his seemingly unreasonable actions were taken out of fear for her life and his, and because of circumstances outside of his control. Molly just thought he must be messing her around because he did not love her enough, or else that he was too cowardly to stand up and fight for her. So they argued not because they were a bad match, but because the rotten circumstances between them never gave them a chance at a healthy relationship.
Yes, Molly was married to Burrich for 16 or so years, but only because she believed Fitz would never return to her. It is possible to love more than one person. It doesn't have to make sense intellectually, her love was so strong that time could not erase it.
As for whether Molly is TRULY the right person for Fitz, I say yes. Even as early on as AQ, Fitz tells us that all he really wanted for himself was to go home to Molly and live a simple life, but he is denied this. As the reader we may harbour a wish to see him publicly acknowledged as a hero, become the king, run away with the fool etc, but a simple life with Molly was what FITZ most desired, even if some of us may think he should wish for more. He still visits Buckkeep often, and continues to serve his Queen and prince so he has hardly retreated back to isolation. I dare say that we are meant to ponder about the love in Fitz' life Jinna refers to, and wonder whether it's Molly or the Fool. In the end, it could be either or both. Yes, the Fool loved Fitz for what he truly was, but I'd say that Molly also loved him warts and all, and him her. Molly was simply never given the chance to know all of Fitz throughout the books, and in the end when he promises her "no secrets between us" and we see that they go on to live happily together, I assume that she was finally allowed to truly know him, the way he could not allow her before, and loved him for it.
Yes, towards the end Fitz does show a a great deal of love and concern for the Fool. However, for Fitz' part this simply isn't romantic love. More to the point, the Fool admits he can never be content to be around Fitz without possessing the whole of his heart. Fitz is a person who's generally very closed and suspicious, but those who do find a way into his heart are loved all the more for it, to the point where Fitz would gladly sacrifice his life for them. The love he feels for Molly, Nighteyes and the Fool goes very deep with each of them. Fitz would have gladly married Molly, with Nighteyes as his bond partner and the Fool as his closest friend. Nighteyes would likely have accepted this, but both Molly and the Fool would have become jealous that there were others who held such a place in his heart. This is in fact part of the reason why the Fool leaves. Thus Fitz cannot have everything he's ever wanted all at the same time, but though he misses the other two special beings in his life, Molly is more than enough for him.
I found the fact that Fitz had been partially forged for years an excellent and plausible twist. He was not forged to the extent that Verity or Kebal Rawbred were. Just a handful of his memories were missing, but they happened to be some of the most significant ones! It is a literal metaphor for many of us do in real life. We may not actually surrender our memories to a dragon, but we may simply suppress some which are too painful and in the process lose an important part of who we are.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Witted Bastard - Jul-14-2010
(Jun-28-2010, 06:58 PM (UTC))Syrocko Wrote: Yes, Kettle did explain to Fitz that he loved the idea of him and Molly more than the reality, but he did not agree. I also find it perfectly plausible that old and wise as she was, she could not see all of Fitz and misjudged the relationship.And Fitz is known for always having a good idea of what he truly wants, eh? Sorry, not buying it. The 'happy-ever-after' eventual reunion with Molly goes against everything the reader had been taught to expect in the prior 5.8 books.
...
As for whether Molly is TRULY the right person for Fitz, I say yes. Even as early on as AQ, Fitz tells us that all he really wanted for himself was to go home to Molly and live a simple life, but he is denied this. As the reader we may harbour a wish to see him publicly acknowledged as a hero, become the king, run away with the fool etc, but a simple life with Molly was what FITZ most desired, even if some of us may think he should wish for more.
Quote:I dare say that we are meant to ponder about the love in Fitz' life Jinna refers to, and wonder whether it's Molly or the Fool. In the end, it could be either or both.Wrong. It's the Fool and no mistake. Molly doesn't twine in and out of Fitz's life at all for 18 or so years (just prior to Regal's dungeon until after returning from Aslevjal and getting stuck in the outer reaches of the Skill). At most he watches her from the periphery of his own isolation. Molly is the substitute match after Nighteyes and the Fool are both lost to Fitz of necessity.
Quote:I found the fact that Fitz had been partially forged for years an excellent and plausible twist.This is so totally false and untrue that I can't believe anybody buys it. Everything we know about Fitz and Hobb's universe must lead any faithful reader to doubt it. How many times does Fitz talk about how damage to the soul heals and scars much the same way that damage to the body does? Not to mention that he obviously continues to carry within him some memory of his time in the dungeon, which comes to the forefront after he brings the Fool back and struggles with helping his friend bear the pain caused by his torture. The restoration of whatever parts of himself had been stored in Realder's Dragon seemed to be a convenience to make his reuniting with Molly even remotely plausible.
Basically I found that everything after the month Fitz spent within the Skill Pillars - or wherever he was - to be a quick and sometimes messy tying-up of several threads. It seemed to me that the author didn't know how to bring the story to a close. And that's not necessarily a criticism, since she has admitted that she hadn't envisioned any sort of ending coming at that point in the story, so it must have been hastily engineered. Well exemplified by Elliania's sudden reappearance after a seeming impasse with Oerttre and her mothershouse, leaving the reader to guess or imagine how that particular conflict had been resolved off-panel as it were.
As to those that see Fitz and the Fool's parting as false, I suggest that the Fool himself addressed those concerns more than adequately. The Fool may no longer have been able to see himself in the role of the White Prophet - or perform that role - the fact remains that Fitz was still Changer, and it's perfectly plausible to me that to have a Catalyst at the height of his powers paired with and influenced by a Prophet bereft of his own would be tremendously dangerous.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Nuytsia - Jul-14-2010
(Jun-28-2010, 06:58 PM (UTC))Syrocko Wrote: I'm afraid that I haven't had time to read everything written so far in this thread, but have managed a good deal of it. I really just wanted to voice my surprise that so many people seem to dislike the ending.Heheh I feel totally gobsmacked that there are people who liked it, and especially, found it *satisfying*.
I've pretty well said all my thoughts on this whole thing, but:
(Jun-28-2010, 06:58 PM (UTC))Syrocko Wrote: Yes, towards the end Fitz does show a a great deal of love and concern for the Fool. However, for Fitz' part this simply isn't romantic love.
I think that may be the impression we get because we are viewing the story through Fitz's rather edited commentary (not his stream of consciousness).
One incident that springs to mind is in one of the Tawny Man books and some woman is trying to flirt with Lord Golden and apparently keeps putting her hand on his arm and Fitz (Tom Badgerlock) is describing to the reader how LG keeps removing her hand 'as if it were a piece of lint' on his sleeve. I just thought (a) who would even notice that, and (b) Rrrrreowr jealous much Fitz???
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Farseer - Jul-15-2010
(Jul-14-2010, 07:28 AM (UTC))Witted Bastard Wrote: As to those that see Fitz and the Fool's parting as false, I suggest that the Fool himself addressed those concerns more than adequately. The Fool may no longer have been able to see himself in the role of the White Prophet - or perform that role - the fact remains that Fitz was still Changer, and it's perfectly plausible to me that to have a Catalyst at the height of his powers paired with and influenced by a Prophet bereft of his own would be tremendously dangerous.
Loving it!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Nuytsia - Jul-15-2010
I don't think he's any longer the Catalyst ......
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Farseer - Jul-15-2010
(Apr-22-2010, 02:34 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: It wasn't an ending to me, and could never be as long as Changer was alive...as Fool himself attested, Fitz was and always would be the catalyst.
Hey Nuytsia. Just found the passage from where I got my info for this old post and why I agreed with Witted Bastard...it comes from Chapter Thirty-Four in the UK version of FF, Commitments pg 729:
Fool says to Fitz, "You are still the Changer, still the Catalyst. Even in the short time you were at Buckkeep, you've proved that. Change is swirling around you like a whirlpool. Restored, you no longer flee it, but seem to attract it. And I, I am blind now, when it comes to seeing what vast changes my influence upon you can cause. So...I will not be coming with you."
Not only does this passage tell us that Fitz is still Changer but his power as the Catalyst is even greater than ever before, after Fool's restoration of him. It also clearly tells us why Fool felt he had to leave.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - 'thul - Jul-15-2010
The 'thul find this interesting.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Syrocko - Jul-15-2010
Hi Witted Bastard, thanks for answering! Please forgive the over-long post. I got a little carried away. I'm well aware that most of you here disagree with me, and that I probably won't do anything to change that. Nonetheless:
Quote: And Fitz is known for always having a good idea of what he truly wants, eh? Sorry, not buying it.
I think that Fitz knows well what he wants before his partial forging. He wants too much, and is not always wise about how he tries to get it, but he knows what he wants and goes for it. After the forging he no longer seems to know what he wants, let alone how to go about getting it. His only concerns seem to be for others rather than himself. When he gets his memories back, once again he realises what he wants, and once again he pursues it ardently, if a little recklessly.
Quote:I dare say that we are meant to ponder about the love in Fitz' life Jinna refers to, and wonder whether it's Molly or the Fool. In the end, it could be either or both.
***
Wrong. It's the Fool and no mistake. Molly doesn't twine in and out of Fitz's life at all for 18 or so years (just prior to Regal's dungeon until after returning from Aslevjal and getting stuck in the outer reaches of the Skill). At most he watches her from the periphery of his own isolation. Molly is the substitute match after Nighteyes and the Fool are both lost to Fitz of necessity.
Nor did the Fool twine in and out of Fitz' life for most of that time. In the interlude between the two series, the only contact between them was a single brief one where Fitz protects the Fool while Skill-dreaming. Fitz not only watches Molly from afar, but has Skill contact and shared dreams with their daughter Nettle.
I can see as well as anyone just how much supposed erotic tension is hinted at between Fitz and the Fool. In AQ they laugh and joke together in hard times, Fitz carries him and sleeps next to him to keep him warm while he's ill etc. There are many even stronger hints dropped throughout the Tawny Man trilogy. A notable one though is when they're pressed cheek to cheek looking though a spy-hole at an important meeting. Fitz assumes that the Fool's quickened breathing must be because he's so interested in what they're witnessing. Just as in every other such situation, he never mentions having any such excitement himself, although I'd say that on a deeper level he does understand the Fool's feelings for him but can't accept them. When the two of them have their big argument, the Fool himself admits that he never wanted to talk about his feelings for Fitz because they both know perfectly well that Fitz could never return them the same way. Fitz later demonstrates the extent of his love perfectly, not by sleeping with the Fool or by giving over his whole heart to him, but with the ultimate act of friendship: being willing to sacrifice his own life to save him.
I believe that the whole Fitz-Fool dynamic, besides enriching the story somewhat, is meant to address the issue of homosexuality. The reader continually questions whether the Fool is male or female. All the while we grow more and more attached to him as a character, and when we see his obvious romantic interest in Fitz we're forced to ask ourselves whether we'd be happy to see them get together. Would it be right for them to get together if the Fool is female? What if the Fool is male, would that still be okay? Ultimately the conclusion we're driven towards is that it doesn't really matter, the Fool is still the Fool regardless of physical gender. Anyone harbouring a degree of homophobia will likely have lost some of it by the end of the books. However, this philosophical journey that the reader undergoes doesn't change the fact that Fitz is straight and that he loves Molly. Fitz is ultimately able, first to acknowledge how the Fool feels for him, and eventually to fully accept it, but his own sexuality cannot change. How likely are you to switch your sexual preference if the right boy/girl comes along?
Quote:I found the fact that Fitz had been partially forged for years an excellent and plausible twist.
***
This is so totally false and untrue that I can't believe anybody buys it. Everything we know about Fitz and Hobb's universe must lead any faithful reader to doubt it. How many times does Fitz talk about how damage to the soul heals and scars much the same way that damage to the body does? Not to mention that he obviously continues to carry within him some memory of his time in the dungeon, which comes to the forefront after he brings the Fool back and struggles with helping his friend bear the pain caused by his torture. The restoration of whatever parts of himself had been stored in Realder's Dragon seemed to be a convenience to make his reuniting with Molly even remotely plausible.
Forged ones do not slowly become less forged over time, and we've seen what partial forging did to Verity and Kebal Rawbread. Verity is not at all like his old self, but with effort can still recall memories and even feel something of them again. Kebal Rawbread still seems like a mere husk of a human being even though many years have passed since his partial forging. Fitz is not forged to anywhere near the same extent, with just a few (albeit highly significant) memories missing. However, I did notice from that point on how very much Fitz had seemed to change. In the assassin series remember that he grew up half-wild, and was a very impulsive and emotional person, always rushing around torn between conflicting emotions. In the Tawny Man trilogy he seems very different. Far more subdued, and dissatisfied with life though lacking the motivation to do anything about it. Rather than setting out to make things happen he just waits until things happen to him. Right up to where he puts his memories into the dragon he would have done anything to win Molly back and go home to his daughter. Afterwards, he never seriously considers it again. From early on in the Tawny Man trilogy I found myself missing the old Fitz. Yes, it's interesting that he does still seem to suffer from memories of Regal's torture, but likely that pain was so huge and severe that he was unable to give it all to the dragon before Nighteyes dragged him away.
However, more important than any technical details is the deeper underlying meaning. I was actually moved almost to tears when I read the part where Fitz gets his memories back, because of how it relates to my life and those of countless others. Forgetting about magical stone dragons for a minute, it is a parallel for how a person can suppress memories that are too emotionally charged, and in doing so they are suppressing a part of themselves. This could be shutting out an abusive parent from their lives, but ultimately realising that in order to heal they need to make peace with them. It could be shunning the memories of awkward and painful teenage years, or the agony of having their heart broken, etc etc. Eventually the memories might be re-integrated not through a dragon giving them back, but through some personal epiphany, or therapy, perhaps a near death experience etc. This level of depth is one of the things I love most about the books.
Quote:Basically I found that everything after the month Fitz spent within the Skill Pillars - or wherever he was - to be a quick and sometimes messy tying-up of several threads. It seemed to me that the author didn't know how to bring the story to a close. And that's not necessarily a criticism, since she has admitted that she hadn't envisioned any sort of ending coming at that point in the story, so it must have been hastily engineered. Well exemplified by Elliania's sudden reappearance after a seeming impasse with Oerttre and her mothershouse, leaving the reader to guess or imagine how that particular conflict had been resolved off-panel as it were.
I don't see what the big deal is about any of the events. To me it all seems like a fitting ending. With Elliania's sudden reappearance, I actually think it happened this way for a different reason. Chade did not want to allow her the absence, because it posed the risk of her not returning. This is just one of many examples of Chade's cold, calculating approach to politics contrasting with Ketricken and Dutiful's more heartfelt approach. Once again it turns out that the heartfelt approach of allowing Elliania to leave was ultimately for the best. The way in which she resolved the conflict with her family was not included because it was not important. Other than this, there's the Molly situation which I've discussed elsewhere, Fitz reconnecting with Patience which was a long time coming, Fitz having missed the Fool's visit which isn't a big deal seeing as they'd already said all that needed to be said, a witnessing of how the dragons do actually seem to be having a positive relationship with humankind, and examples of how the marriage between Dutiful and Elliania is helping to create goodwill between their two homelands. Towards the end the narrative jumps further and further ahead in time just to give us a glimpse of how things turn out well in the longer term, similar to how we are given a glimpse of events years later at the end of the Farseer trilogy.
Nuytsia wrote:
Quote:I think that may be the impression we get because we are viewing the story through Fitz's rather edited commentary (not his stream of consciousness).
This reading between the lines you're doing does sound plausible. However, in the end it's just speculation. I don't think Fitz says or does a single thing that inadvertently yet conclusively lets slip that he fancies the Fool.
Just a final point. Personally I would have been far less satisfied for Fitz to leave with the Fool for other reasons besides. For one, Fitz' whole life is in and around Buckkeep, not to mention his daughter. He's also spent too much of his life in secrecy due to his role as an assassin, the crimes he was accused of and the stigma of his Wit. Being seen to bed with another man in a culture that does not accept such things would rob him of his first ever opportunity to be accepted by society, and he would be forced back to either secrecy or living as an outcast. If he had truly loved the Fool romantically then this should not have stopped him, but it would not have made his life easy!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - NeverBeenWise - Jul-16-2010
I'm okay with most of the ending. Surprisingly, after I read the book again I found myself satisfied with almost all of it. I do see how it's quite rushed, but I don't mind, seeing how Hobb had been planning to write another part of Fitzy's epic.
What bugged me the most wasn't that the Fool left Fitz. I'm a sadistic reader; the more pain the characters go through, the more I enjoy catching every facet of their reactions. No, I was just upset that Chade was telling Fitz about how he'd missed the Fool by a week... and Fitz didn't say anything, even to himself, of shock or sorrow. He just nodded. I mean, even one line, one line would have sufficed: something like either a sick sense of sadness, or a concession to his apathy. But he just nods and accepts that his very best friend, one of the triangle between the three bonded characters (Fitz/Fool/Nighteyes), had just left and he didn't even get to say goodbye. Fitz grieves for a long time when Nighteyes dies, not so much for the death as for his loss. It is no less of a loss even though the Fool is still alive. He took back the Skill link that had connected them for, what, sixteen years? And now realizes he may never see him again, and he definitely will never sense him again? And is completely passive and okay with that? No. I absolutely hated that. It's okay that he got back together with Molly. It's fine that Elliania comes back, fine that he gets the life he'd wanted from the beginning even though it's not perfect. But I could never imagine someone being that apathetic about losing their best, closest childhood friend.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Mervi - Jul-16-2010
I didn't get the impression that Fitz passively accepted that he'd never see the Fool again. I think he just refuses to even deal with that thought, so he makes sure he's busy living his life and enjoying the things he can. But that's just my interpretation.