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+--- Thread: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man (/thread-64.html)
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - erikh - Feb-14-2011
This has been a very interesting post to read. If I had to pinpoint my grievances with the ending, it would be these:
First, Hap should have been developed a little more. He was pretty much Fitz's son, yet he went was swiftly relegated to the "not important" category when Molly reentered the narrative. I know he was supposed to be finding himself as a minstrel and all that, but he lived with Fitz for years, and that's all the farewell we get?
Second, I think that the Fool's disappearance is unsatisfying, especially with the fact that Fitz barely missed him in Buckkeep Town. This leads me to believe, or more likely to hope, that there will be another book or even short story with them.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Farseer - Feb-14-2011
Well met, erikh!
(Feb-14-2011, 02:38 AM (UTC))erikh Wrote: He was pretty much Fitz's son, yet he went was swiftly relegated to the "not important" category when Molly reentered the narrative. I know he was supposed to be finding himself as a minstrel and all that, but he lived with Fitz for years, and that's all the farewell we get?
Ah, but maybe his taking on the role of minstrel (not a 'nothing' or 'not important' role by any means given a minstrel's status in society or in the eyes of a dragon) will bear significance later in the tale?
At least, I hope so! Hapless, like so many others who began their journey as 'lesser' folk, may prove to be of considerable value in the unfolding of the plot... 
Either way, he was certainly present at the wedding so still an important part in the life of Fitz? I do know what you mean though.
(Feb-14-2011, 02:38 AM (UTC))erikh Wrote: Second, I think that the Fool's disappearance is unsatisfying, especially with the fact that Fitz barely missed him in Buckkeep Town. This leads me to believe, or more likely to hope, that there will be another book or even short story with them.
I believe it is inevitable, as I keep harping on about throughout the forums.
I simply just cannot see the entire ROTE storyline drawing to a close without Fool and Fitz...the White Prophet and Catalyst simply HAVE to be there somewhere in some form. There is still much for them to do and much to be resolved. It's fantastic to have you here with us, erikh - welcome!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? - Nightchade - Feb-17-2011
‘You’re my number one…’
I’ve already had a rant about the ending of FF over on the YUKU forum. Won’t repeat all here but having finished FF several weeks ago I’m still expecting to bump into these characters. They became so real to me.
I never thought Fool and Fitz would be together as ‘a couple’ and for me Syrocko has encapsulated a lot of how I saw the relationship between Fool and Fitz. The Fool wanted more than he knew Fitz could/would give. The Fool could have coped without bedding Fitz (and for all we know his idea of sexual intimacy might be more akin to what they had experienced in the skill link …which might have been acceptable to Fitz) but he saw all of the problems his presence in Fitz life would cause while Molly remained his no.1 love. Hence, the analogy around Fitz and Dutiful; the Fool would be ‘one step away’ from all that he wanted to be .ie Fitz’s lover.(or at least his main love). The Nighteyes analogy seemed to turn this around except in my reading this was the Fool simply trying to point out that a close bond can exist without ‘bedding’ (I so love that phrase!). He was also slightly teasing Fitz and was amused at his horrified reaction. I never really saw this analogy as the Fool stating a sexual relationship was never on because of human/non human considerations. If he had never been up for a sexual relationship with Fitz then why did he not reassure him of this earlier? The Fool wanted to protect himself from hearing again that rejection that was so painful in GF. Even at that point Fitz is getting angry at the suggestion remember? (It reminds me of an incident with a close gay friend who, years ago, when I asked if he fancied a particular chap, remarked that it would be as out of the question as…as..as..sleeping with you!!.-accompanied by a look of horror. Now, there were no suprises, I’d had no illusions about this, or any yearnings that way myself, I still knew he was a loving friend and we were soul mates but it still stung a bit …I didn’t need to hear that…ouch!)
I do think the Fool, having been confronted with his own mortality, was very aware of the lifespan differences but feel he would have coped with ‘another of your deaths Fitz’ If Fitz had indicated the Fool was his no.1. I also think the Fool would have set aside his considerations on the impact on the future in this case, and by his return to Buckeep its seems clear he had unwisely chosen to do this. He does wear his heart on his sleeve a bit….
Still at this point things did make sense.
Incidentally, I’m not sure that I agree there were no signs that Fitz ever fancied the Fool. I think there was a physical attraction but Fitz was so far away from ever acknowledging this I couldn’t see him ever letting himself explore his feelings. This would have taken several more volumes methinks, I’m also minded that to condone and explore the relationship moving further in this direction might have been a huge gamble for Ms Hobb and would risk alienating many readers . Sadly.
The parting was beautifully written and completely in keeping with the story at that point. I was upset because it was so desperately sad, not because I didn’t agree with the Fools decisions or the ending. However…long term with Molly…meh, I didn’t hate her but think it is so sad that Fitz has as his no.1 true love a person who would not accept so much of what had made him the person he was. He wanted peace and contentment at the end of the book but how long for I ask myself. Would he just suppress all of his wittedness for example? I also find it hard to see that Fitz would be truly happy without the Fools presence in his life and also believe that the Fool was the lifelong love Kettle referred to.
The bit that didn't make sense for me was learning the Fool had returned to Buckeep and had missed Fitz! I felt my emotions were a bit over exploited at that point. Why I wonder did Hobb do this? There would have been other ways of presenting a farewell gift and bittersweet poem without the image of the Fool looking ‘stricken’ and in my view the tale would have been better without this additional heart wrenching particularly as the remainder of the book seems to be written in a different style altogether. I found it very hard to see Fitz moving on apparently so easily, reading the poem ‘about dancing’ (gah!) twice mind you, then popping off to see Hap or something. It might have worked had this not been the end of the story but a prelude to a second half where the Fool and Fitz meet again. I have read that Robin Hobb had always intended to write more about Fitz and Fool but had been so daunted by people's reactions she hadn’t felt able to. Perhaps this is why for me the ending felt unfinished. It was.
Doh, another rant….
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Nuytsia - Feb-21-2011
(Feb-14-2011, 02:38 AM (UTC))erikh Wrote: First, Hap should have been developed a little more. He was pretty much Fitz's son, yet he went was swiftly relegated to the "not important" category when Molly reentered the narrative. I know he was supposed to be finding himself as a minstrel and all that, but he lived with Fitz for years, and that's all the farewell we get?
I felt a bit like that too........ also, I had forgotten that Hap was brought to Fitz by Starling until I re-read AQ and then I though oooooh geees and then he later turns out to want to be a minstrel! You'd think he might have considered it earlier with Starling's regular visits?
(Feb-17-2011, 12:02 AM (UTC))Nightchade Wrote: However…long term with Molly…meh, I didn’t hate her but think it is so sad that Fitz has as his no.1 true love a person who would not accept so much of what had made him the person he was. He wanted peace and contentment at the end of the book but how long for I ask myself. Would he just suppress all of his wittedness for example?
I really see his marrying Molly as another escape from reality! In the Farseers books she was the person he went to when he wanted to escape all his responsibilities.... she had no idea who or what he was really. I think that is really the main thing that appeals to him about the thought of Molly when his boyhood memories return to him.
I find it particularly telling that they went to live at Withywoods. This is what Fitz had to say in AA about Chivalry going to live at Withywoods when he abdicated:
"It is a soft holding, far from the borders, far from the politics of court, far from anything that had been Chivalry's life up to then. It was a pasturing out, a gentle and genteel exile for a man who would have been King. A velvet smothering for a warrior and a silencing of a rare and skilled
diplomat."
(Feb-17-2011, 12:02 AM (UTC))Nightchade Wrote: The bit that didn't make sense for me was learning the Fool had returned to Buckeep and had missed Fitz! I felt my emotions were a bit over exploited at that point. Why I wonder did Hobb do this? There would have been other ways of presenting a farewell gift and bittersweet poem without the image of the Fool looking ‘stricken’ and in my view the tale would have been better without this additional heart wrenching particularly as the remainder of the book seems to be written in a different style altogether. I found it very hard to see Fitz moving on apparently so easily, reading the poem ‘about dancing’ (gah!) twice mind you, then popping off to see Hap or something. It might have worked had this not been the end of the story but a prelude to a second half where the Fool and Fitz meet again. I have read that Robin Hobb had always intended to write more about Fitz and Fool but had been so daunted by people's reactions she hadn’t felt able to. Perhaps this is why for me the ending felt unfinished. It was.
yeah! I felt my emotions were a bit over exploited at that point too! Nice description.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Farseer - Oct-06-2011
Argh! I hate laptops!! Whenever I type directly into the reply post field, I lose five out of every ten posts I make...
...and when I type them on to a Word Doc first, with the plan to cut and paste later, the whole computer dies, and I never get them posted...
...I can't win!
To cut a long story short, and despite the meant-to-be-ness between he and Fool AND my belief that we have not yet seen any sort of 'ending' for either of them AND my belief that we will see our WP and Catalyst together again AND my intense dislike for Molly, Fitz did predict this ending way back in RA, and stayed true to his promise for himself. He told Chade, "I will marry no one except Molly." Naw! I love Fitz!
(Apr-11-2010, 11:05 AM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: Also, I think that because he is willingly giving his being to a stone dragon, the almost-forged man that he is, is very different from a real Forged one. Much like lovemaking is different from rape. Compare how both acts affect people and I think you see the difference between people who carve a stone dragon and people who are Forged. Same process, extremely different methods.
Just wanting to highlight this point as it adds to some things discussed in the Memories/Forging thread.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - 'thul - Oct-06-2011
perhaps you should set word to Autosave every 1-2 minutes?
The difference between dragon carvers and forged ones is simple. willingness. understanding.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - EverSnow - Oct-16-2011
(Oct-06-2011, 06:18 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: To cut a long story short, and despite the meant-to-be-ness between he and Fool AND my belief that we have not yet seen any sort of 'ending' for either of them AND my belief that we will see our WP and Catalyst together again AND my intense dislike for Molly, Fitz did predict this ending way back in RA, and stayed true to his promise for himself. He told Chade, "I will marry no one except Molly." Naw! I love Fitz!
Have to agree with Farseer. While as a reader we can look on from the outside and think it isn't right, it is what Fitz has always wanted/originally expected for himself.
It might not be (and in all honestly I not convinced it's is) the happiest ending Fitz could have but it does make sense in character.
Throughout the books, Fitz has wanted to be with Molly. At the end Burrich has died (so is no longer a reason to abstain) and Fitz feels obligated to look after his family (to pay the debt back). Additionally Fitz wants to mend fences with Nettle (Something Dutiful is also pushing him to do). Living at Withywoods gives him a chance to have the quiet life he wanted.
With his sense of duty and stubbornness it's no wonder Fitz would end up in such a situation were he could be content.
On the Hap topic given how the book is from Fitz's point of view I personally find his diminished part (unfortunately) symbolic of the pull between his life with Hap (his adopted son) and that with the Farseers (his blood family). At the end when all is settled with the blood family (and Burrich) and he has Molly to boot Hap almost disappears
Much like the Fool
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Farseer - Nov-01-2011
While I agree that Hap was a secondary matter in comparison to the pull of duty that Fitz experienced when he returned to Buckkeep life (didn't many things tend to come second in his life in this regard though, both prior to and after his period of living in the hut...even Molly, Nettle and his own 'self'?), I find I have to disagree with the thought that Hap has been forgotten or farewelled or that Fitz thought of him as being unimportant.
Hap had lived a sheltered and isolated life for many years in 'Tom's hut' under the care of Fitz. His immersion into life outside of this bubble came at a time, I believe, when he was of a similar age to Fitz when Fitz was first out 'saving the world', and of a similar age to Dutiful when he was out on a quest to slay dragons. Hap wasn't that young, and was even apprenticed far later than he should have been. If anything, it could be said that Fitz had over-sheltered him in this regard, and should have let him go much sooner.
For whatever reasons eg love for Hap, simple desire or need for his or ANY company etc, Fitz kept him by his side...and mourned him somewhat when Hap himself chose to go off and earn his own coin (for his apprentice fee?). It was only when Hap left that Fitz began to feel truly fidgety and suddenly experienced a loss of direction, aside from having already experienced an increasing ‘feeling’ of something waiting to happen or longing for the Skill etc.
While back in Buck, duty once again called to Fitz. He stayed true to his Farseer blood, role of Catalyst and name of Changer but he also did what most parents of a young man such as Hap would do...give guidance and love (and a good talking to when required!) but generally let him make his own choices, be they ending in mistakes and/or successes. Hap was uninvolved in court life, and blissfully unaware of the role Fitz held there, and so therefore possibly seemed to be absent in comparison to others eg Chade, Dutiful etc but wasn't he just busy making his own way in the world? Did he have to be off on a quest, or doing something 'astounding' to achieve something of worth?
As for his becoming a minstrel, I doubt he would ever have even given a thought to becoming a minstrel prior to the time when he actually did it. He was with ‘Tom’ for so long and had all he needed there with him that he probably never truly contemplated life beyond he, Nighteyes and the hut...until age and curiosity, and possibly fate, kind of decreed that he had to. He also later resented Starling for her treatment of Fitz and so he would likely have wanted to distance himself from her and her occupation as much as possible. That he eventually forgave her, gravitated back to her and took up her lifestyle, shows how much he matured over time.
With regard to his character developing even more, isn't that what is already happening with his shift to becoming a minstrel? Did he have to develop as much as a character such as, say, Malta, to show 'enough' development? He has found his footing, his calling and himself, despite the stumbles, and has huge potential for the future. He will travel, he will learn, he will experience. In fact, he is doing exactly what the younger Fitz himself had dreamed and longed to do as a scribe apprenticed to Fedwren. He has choice - the ability to choose for himself. This when he was reared by a man who had long lamented that his life was bereft of choice.
Who is to say what role Hap will play in later events? Maybe it will be significant or maybe it won’t but as Fitz noted at one point, “My boy seemed genuinely happy, and if I was not pleased to part with him, I was pleased that he had found a choice that gave him so much satisfaction.” As a parent who has not long had her eldest son leave the nest, this thought well reflects my own feelings on the matter. I continue to live my life and fulfil the duties and roles that I have within that life, caring for my husband, other son and young daughter etc, but I still think of my eldest son, care for him, worry about him (endlessly!) and am here in every possible way for the times when he needs me. He, like Hap, is not forgotten. I have not abandoned him. He is no less important or no less loved. He just isn’t right here, right now. He doesn’t depend on me all of the time like he used to. Also like Hap, his job is no longer to tend the chickens and his world now expands well beyond the boundaries of our land. That doesn’t mean that I’m not his parent anymore...it just means that his, and my, roles have changed.
As a slight aside, certainly I have put my life on hold to a certain degree over the years but what parent would ever fully pause their entire life to traipse after their older child/children, particularly a single parent like Fitz? As far as that goes, I consider myself very lucky to have a partner in my husband whose presence enables me to drop things to head off and do whatever needs to be done for the benefit of my children. Wherever possible, at least one of us is always there to provide direct support to them. We have each other’s backs and we have theirs. Fitz, however, was not always so fortunate, even with Jinna and Chade’s generosity and supervision. At least, Fitz didn’t always feel that he could ask for help and this was cause for stress for him at times. He worried about Hap but there was not always a lot he felt he could do.
What else could Fitz truly have done for Hap? Hap was always going to make his own mistakes, and learn his own lessons, no matter what it was that Fitz said. He is his own person. Certainly he lived with Fitz for many years but it was ‘Tom’ whom he lived with, not FitzChivalry Farseer. In many ways he lived with, and was raised by, half a person. There is also the fact that Fitz himself had a less than normal upbringing. Certainly he had a father figure in Burrich but no doubt he often felt that he lacked skills and confidence in his ability to be a good father to Hap. Fitz himself stressed that he may not have done well by Hap; that he had realised too late that he had not taught him all of the things that he possibly should have known. He knew the limits of what he had provided in their relationship.
Later in Buck, by not being around as much as he used to be, Fitz also actually allowed Hap to successfully work out his own character. While it may be a parent’s task to help shape a child’s character, it is really up to the child to work out who they want to be. Nobody else can do that for them, no matter how hard they try to.
Did Fitz forget about him or fob him off when he got together with Molly? I just can’t see it. During his ‘courtship’ of Molly, Fitz made mention of Hap and his return visit to Buck with Sawtongue. He’d noted the physical changes that Hap had undergone and proudly stated that he’d completed two of his own songs which had both been well received. Fleeting reference perhaps but no different than what I may relay to someone questioning after my own children?
I know I mentioned this in an earlier post but, later, although Hap went off with his minstrel master and their lord after the wedding of Dutiful to Elliania, he did return to Withywoods to witness Fitz and Molly exchange their own vows. Only those close to Fitz attended the ceremony and Hap was as fully a part of the family circle there as were all of the other people important to Fitz.
It was here where Fitz made mention of Hap and his ‘new sister’ (Nettle). Was Nettle seen as a new sister in Hap’s eyes simply because Fitz, his foster father, had just married Nettle’s mother, or was Hap finally made aware of the fact that Nettle was a blood daughter to Fitz and not Burrich? If it was the latter, no doubt the rest of Fitz and Molly’s story would had to have followed? It is difficult to say for certain what he meant by this term ‘new sister’ but there is the possibility that Fitz later chose to disclose his long-held secrets to Hap, just as he did to Molly and her children. If that was the case then all who are close to Fitz would finally be fully aware of all of his secrets, history, faults and accomplishments. At the very least, Hap would have been very curious as to the presence of Kettricken, Dutiful, Chade and Elliania at the ceremony! Still, for me, his own simple presence there suggests that he remained as much a part of Fitz and his life as ever.
Just like we have not seen the last of Fool (I'll believe it when I see it!), maybe, just maybe, we have not yet seen the last of Hap ‘the hapless’? I must say that I was never a fan of his but he got there in the end and I can't help but cheer for him, and Fitz, that he made it.
Hmm...the minstrels-connected-to-dragons thingy that I have spoken about in the past also casts an interesting light on what Hap's future may hold. Who knows? Maybe one day he will be gifted a piece of wizardwood by a dragon, and asked to shape a rooster's feather...
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Farseer - Nov-01-2011
My husband finally finished FF last night and so I asked his "manly" opinion of how everything had progressed. I have waited YEARS to hear his opinion! Interestingly, he was quite satisfied with the situation between Fitz and Molly and didn't feel it to be a mushy love-story-kind-of-cop-out. I didn't ever think so either
but a part of me had expected that he would, based on things others have said. If anything, he believed he'd have felt the same way - that theirs was a short and passionate relationship early on and they would have both spent their lives apart from each other, always wondering at the lost potential...no matter who else turned up. Moreover, he was relieved to discover that Fitz had even survived, after thinking that he was going to die from the stings from Molly's bees. He'd thought,"Oh, you poor bugger, Fitz. To have survived all you've had to, and to finally win back Molly, you're going to die from an allergy to bee stings. It's a good thing you'd been away from Molly and her bees all those years or else look at the things you'd never have accomplished!".
FitzChivalry Farseer - death by bees - such a thing had never occurred to me!
OT but this morning, at breakfast, my better half then lamented that he'd have nothing now to fill his reading void, so I plonked 'Homecoming' in front of him (thought that a good way to bridge the gap between LST and RWC and to also introduce him to the style of Detozi and Erek's writing!) and then, a short way into it, lamented the fact that he had to go to work. Robin both enhances and interrupts lives...yes, yes she does.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Valarya - Nov-02-2011
Ah, you're quite lucky you have a man who reads the books you love. I always tried to get my ex-husband to read them but he never did. Of course, now that we're 5 years divorced and GRRMs series has made it to HBO, he's reading those. *shakes head
My current guy has introduced me to wonderful books from his childhood such as Forgotten Realms and Neuromancer type stuff, but never will he pick up RotE or aSoIaF. Ah well.. sometimes two people need SOMETHING apart from each other. That's my excuse.
In regards to your short-novel up there about Hap (which is well-written, as always):
Quote:In many ways he lived with, and was raised by, half a person.
I assume the "many ways" can refer to, not only the fact he was just Tom and not Fitz during those years, but that a lot of who he really was was trapped back in the mountains inside Girl on a Dragon. I remember my first re-read of the TM trilogy and how every thought and word spoken by Fitz made so much more sense knowing half his feelings weren't inside him anymore.
(I just started #1 of TM today after having finished LST last night for who knows how many re-reads this is, now.)