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+--- Thread: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man (/thread-64.html)
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - FoolishGirl - Feb-23-2012
Regarding RH's post, I'm of course glad that she "stuck to her guns" regarding the endings. She does know her characters best.
But, one can understand readers' proprietary feelings about Ftiz and the Fool (I'm guilty, too). If RH didn't write them so vivid, real, alive, who would even care how it all turned out?
For me, Molly was not in the story enough to carry as much weight as she did with Fitz. Those two never shared any near-death experiences, nor even one soul-bearing conversation, that I can recall. Fitz's love for Molly is frustrating for me, because he seems to love an ideal, an image in his mind, a memory.
Some of the most powerful writing of RH's, to me, is her description of Fitz and the Fool skill bonding in the tower. THAT love and acceptance and fullness of feeling is not something you walk away from. You don't. You grab it and keep it close, and find a way to live IN THERE, with that someone.
While I believe RH knows best how Fitz feels, I have to feel that we didn't see his relationship with Molly revealed to its full potential, if he could accept a life that didn't include his Beloved.
Or maybe I was just blinded by all that Skilling hotness.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Valarya - Feb-23-2012
What a wonderful post by Robin... I'm appalled that so many people feel it's their right to contact the author with 'hate' mail and complain to him/her about his/her own vision and work of art.
I want to find these people who mailed ridiculous letters to Robin and I want to open my maw wide to display my venom sacs (or have the beings do that, instead). They deserve to feel the wrath of dragonspit.
As to my own experience, when I first read the Farseer trilogy, and Fitz was going back to find Molly I remember saying to myself "no, no, no, no, no.. please don't be a cheesy ending where he gets the girl, that isn't realistic to his tale!" Even though I loved Fitz and wanted him to be happy.. it just didn't seem right. So when he and Nighteyes decide to leave Molly and Burrich and go off on their own, I was so pleased and fulfilled that I had finally found an author who stays so TRUE to her characters. It was refreshing!!
I also can't fathom Fitz's ending after Fool's Fate to be any different than it was. The whole trilogy is heart-rending in both it's ups and downs. And, honestly, as much as I felt so sorry for Fool - to have to leave his beloved - Hobb already explained this in the end. It wouldn't have been natural, anyway. Not just because Fitz is in love with Molly (and not gay), but because Fool being with Fitz would be akin to Fitz being with Nighteyes. Foreign.
The only sad part about the entire ending is that Fitz and Fool don't really have a farewell (other than the Skill block Fool leaves). However, I always saw that as an opening for a future farewell.
Thanks for posting that, Farseer!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - FoolishGirl - Feb-24-2012
I can see where you are coming from, Valarya. And I agree there could be a future farewell!
I didn't expect or want F & F to end up together romantically or sexually. I felt like it was a White Prophet/Catalyst thing, outside of and beyond ordinary human existence, and not really comparable to romantic love. Fitz chose romantic love and companionship. And my heart broke for the Fool.
That is why I love these books. No "happy ending" even when the good guy gets the girl.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - 'thul - Feb-24-2012
Not all relationships can be allowed to work out.
In one series 'thul have read several times, the ending would result in a rather large family. He, the Hero, might only have one son, but considering that both him and his queen were young, and that he was immortal and she would live for centuries, it would eventually result in quite a few daughters, and all off them strong-willed.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Omie - Mar-16-2012
I think the relationship between Fitz and the Fool turned out like the relationship between Fitz and Nighteyes would have if Nighteyes had decided to join a wolf pack and find a mate. The fact that Nighteyes never did either turned out to be beneficial to Fitz in many ways, but it left Nighteyes living a life that was only half-wolf. He didn't complain, because he didn't see it that way (he didn't care about what he was 'supposed to be', only what he was) but the life he could have lived is still a life lost. I think the difference in the relationships is that Fitz did ultimately find his own 'pack' (Molly, her children and his new life). The Fool had to find the strength to let him go (whether you think it's strength is up to you. It could simply be that the Fool knew he would not be strong enough to watch Fitz live his own life separately and then die of old age while the Fool was still in his prime) because he knew that as long as he was there he would be too strong an influence in Fitz's life when Fitz's life would be happier as Molly's husband and Nettle's dad rather than as the Catalyst. If you remember back to when Nighteyes tried to live with a pack for a time, he told Fitz that he would come running if only Fitz asked it of him. Fitz had the strength not to ask. I think the Fool sees himself as a bit of a toxic friend to Fitz.
Having said that, I think there's wriggle room for the pair to pair-up again, or at least to influence each other's lives from afar, but that depends on whether Robin Hobb is stuck by a plothammer that causes her to write about them both or either one of them separately.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - FoolishGirl - Mar-16-2012
(Mar-16-2012, 01:30 AM (UTC))Omie Wrote: I think the relationship between Fitz and the Fool turned out like the relationship between Fitz and Nighteyes would have if Nighteyes had decided to join a wolf pack and find a mate. The fact that Nighteyes never did either turned out to be beneficial to Fitz in many ways, but it left Nighteyes living a life that was only half-wolf. He didn't complain, because he didn't see it that way (he didn't care about what he was 'supposed to be', only what he was) but the life he could have lived is still a life lost. I think the difference in the relationships is that Fitz did ultimately find his own 'pack' (Molly, her children and his new life). The Fool had to find the strength to let him go (whether you think it's strength is up to you. It could simply be that the Fool knew he would not be strong enough to watch Fitz live his own life separately and then die of old age while the Fool was still in his prime) because he knew that as long as he was there he would be too strong an influence in Fitz's life when Fitz's life would be happier as Molly's husband and Nettle's dad rather than as the Catalyst. If you remember back to when Nighteyes tried to live with a pack for a time, he told Fitz that he would come running if only Fitz asked it of him. Fitz had the strength not to ask. I think the Fool sees himself as a bit of a toxic friend to Fitz.Very insightful post, Omie. Never thought about the pack analogy before. And the Fool as a "toxic" friend!
Having said that, I think there's wriggle room for the pair to pair-up again, or at least to influence each other's lives from afar, but that depends on whether Robin Hobb is stuck by a plothammer that causes her to write about them both or either one of them separately.
Been thinking about why I wanted so much for the Fool to NOT leave, and I conclude it's mostly because I knew I would miss Beloved's company. And I do! Can't help it, he's my fave.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Valarya - Mar-16-2012
(Mar-16-2012, 01:30 AM (UTC))Omie Wrote: I think the relationship between Fitz and the Fool turned out like the relationship between Fitz and Nighteyes would have if Nighteyes had decided to join a wolf pack and find a mate. The fact that Nighteyes never did either turned out to be beneficial to Fitz in many ways, but it left Nighteyes living a life that was only half-wolf. He didn't complain, because he didn't see it that way (he didn't care about what he was 'supposed to be', only what he was) but the life he could have lived is still a life lost. I think the difference in the relationships is that Fitz did ultimately find his own 'pack' (Molly, her children and his new life). The Fool had to find the strength to let him go (whether you think it's strength is up to you. It could simply be that the Fool knew he would not be strong enough to watch Fitz live his own life separately and then die of old age while the Fool was still in his prime) because he knew that as long as he was there he would be too strong an influence in Fitz's life when Fitz's life would be happier as Molly's husband and Nettle's dad rather than as the Catalyst. If you remember back to when Nighteyes tried to live with a pack for a time, he told Fitz that he would come running if only Fitz asked it of him. Fitz had the strength not to ask. I think the Fool sees himself as a bit of a toxic friend to Fitz.
This is exactly how I felt about it, but you are able to state it oh-so-eloquently.
It always made sense for the Fool to leave based on what you've said here. I knew Fitz-to-Fool was like Nighteyes-to-Fitz and have said that around here somewhere... I just never went as far to think it similar to if Nighteyes had found his own pack and stayed, but you're absolutely right.
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Farseer - Mar-16-2012
This all made me think of an old conversation on packs and Alpha males etc in the The Dragon Keeper "Controversial?" Hobb and sexuality thread. Post #24 goes on from other things eg post #23 but it's kind of where it begins. You all may find it interesting...or not?
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - Farseer - Mar-18-2012
There have been 'plenty' over the years who've found it difficult to believe that Fitz should still pine for Molly...that he should want to make a life with her in his thirties, just as he once longed to do in his teens. We've had more than a few subsequent discussions here and elsewhere on the subject. I won't rehash but I did have a related "Aha!" moment today and just wanted to briefly share...
While going through a mass of paper from my schoolroom from about nine or ten years ago, I came across a copy of some old emails that I didn't know I still had. There is much, much more involved in the situation but suffice it to say that those emails signaled the abrupt and very messy end of a relationship with one of my older brothers.
I haven't ever forgotten that severing or the events leading up to, and following, it. I *do* try to ignore it all and work hard to put it aside when it creeps up, and usually succeed. In seeing those emails though, it all came crashing, CRASHING back, with all those feelings swamping me anew. All this and I didn't even need to reread those emails...just the realisation that it *was* them, was enough. It was like being transported back in time, with my feelings proving to be just as fresh and raw as they were way back then. I had not and have not 'dealt' with it.
In a similar-ish fashion, Fool returned so many feelings to Fitz from G-o-a-D and all would have been as fresh to him in that moment as they had been back in his teens. He had never changed (especially so as he was and remains the Catalyst) and, even more, he was feeling his emotions just as he had when he'd placed them within G-o-a-D. This makes sense to me.
We go on a wonderful family holiday when we are children. We come home. We remember the great times we had but, over time, the memory of the doing lingers while the 'totality' of the time is lost...at least until we watch the home movies as adults, pull out the photos or sit down and talk, and it is only then that it is returned to us somewhat. We experience this kind of thing often, even when we don't consciously try to avoid thinking about such things.
Fitz, though, is an expert in suppressing things he doesn't want to think of or things he doesn't want to 'see'. His being a Farseer and skilled in the Skill and the Wit etc, only highlights this ability. I think Chade once said, and I may have quoted it before, something about Fitz being very unobservant at times considering he was so usually so highly observant (from memory, Chade had said this after he revealed that he too was 'a bastard' - a revelation that shocked Fitz, and this same shock surprised Chade as Chade had believed that Fitz had worked it out
).Having his feelings back from G-o-a-D, Fitz had no choice but to rewatch or re-experience them all anew. They CRASHED back in, fresh, so fresh and human that Fool could hardly withstand it all.
I will go back to trying to suppress my feelings...will throw those emails in the bin and get on with life but Fitz, well, he chose to finally get things out in the open. There were other factors but, even alone, his promise to Burrich to look after his family did not allow him to turn aside from it all. His developing relationship with Nettle and the sudden return of Molly to his life also did not allow him to hide.
In many ways, the same would be for me if I should find myself in a situation that would not allow me to hide any longer. I would have to face things. Maybe, like Fitz, I will one day have to have it all out in the open. On that day of reckoning, I would easily be able to take off exaclty from where the last confrontation had left....just as Fitz was able to take off from the point where he had last fully felt those feelings. Thirty something he may have been physically but, when reunited with himself, his feelings for Molly were still those of the passionately 'teenage' Fitz...though, of course, he was able to handle things 'like a man', given his years.
Anyway...just thoughts...possibly better suited along the lines of "You know you're hooked when you pick up pieces of paper and begin a ligthbulb moment dedicated to Fitz"...
EDIT: Ahem! What was that about briefly...?!
RE: The ending doesn't make sense? Spoilers Farseer & Tawny Man - fool-ish - Mar-18-2012
I think I always knew Fitz would be with Molly eventually. However, a small part of me expected Robin to have Molly reject Fitz, after all she was mighty angry with him for many years..of course, her anger was born out of love for him, even her stubborn nature wouldn't allow her to reject him. Through it all, they never stopped loving one another.
You're quite right Farseer, Fitz' feelings would have come crashing back in when fool gave his memories back and he'd never ever gotten over losing Molly, despite trying his hardest to rid himself of those feelings.
I'm glad Fitz found happiness, gods know he deserves it and the fact that he's with his first love makes me gladder still. And while Fitz' relationship with fool was intense, it was a very different kind of love. Fitz' place was ultimately with Molly and Nettle.
For all that though, the thought that fool didn't know whether Fitz was dead or alive broke my heart. A bittersweet ending if ever there was one and it'll break my heart all over again the next time I read it.
Robin, if you're listening, un-break my heart...please