Quote:And the wit is without doubt related to the Elderlings...

Treeknee’s translation of The Circle of Magic by Skillmaster Oklef Wrote:‘Thus every magic has its space in the spectrum of magic, and together they make up the great circle of power. All magical lore is encompassed in the circle, from the skills of the humble hedge-wizard with his charms, the scryer with his bowl or crystal, the bestial magic of the Wit and the celestial magic of the Skill, and all the homely magics of hearth and heart. All can be placed as I have shown them, in a great spectrum, and it must be clear to any eye that a common thread runs through all of them. But that is not to say that any user can or should attempt to master the full circle of magic. Such a wide sweep of the art is not given to any mortal, and with good reason. No one is meant to be master of all powers. A Skill-user may expand his expertise to scrying, and there have been tales of beast-magickers who had mastered some of the fire- magic- and water-finding skills of the hedgewizards. As illustrated by the chart, each of these lesser arcs of magic are adjacent to the greater magics, and thus a mage can expand his powers to include these minor skills as well. But to have larger ambitions than these is a great error. For one who augurs through a crystal to attempt to master the bringing of fire is a mistake. These magics are not neighbouring magics, and the strains of supporting their differences may bring discord to his mind. For a Skill user to demean himself with the beast-magic of the Wit is to invite the decay and debasement of his higher magic. Such a vile ambition should be condemned.’

Quote:But that is not to say that any user can or should attempt to master the full circle of magic. Such a wide sweep of the art is not given to any mortal, and with good reason. No one is meant to be master of all powers.

(Jun-17-2010, 10:37 AM (UTC))maulkin Wrote: I am fairly sure that Kennit had the charm carved specifically for him, although I am not sure whether it mentioned that the piece was previously unused.

The other thing that fascinated me was the skull-shaped wizardwood contraceptive charms worn by several female characters. These never showed any sign of sentience. I wonder how and why they actually worked?

(Jun-19-2010, 04:25 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: I agree, maulkin!!! I have spent the last few days thinking on that very thing! WHY, for an example, didn't Etta's skull quicken?

(Aug-18-2010, 02:17 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: As well as creating art through sculptures, tapestries and other objects etc, Elderlings were known for their plays and music etc, weren't they? I am sure there was a stage or two mentioned in Homecoming and also the LST books in Trehaug somewhere, where Elderlings once held performances?

I only bring this up as I have just been thinking of Thick. While he is obviously talented in Skill-healing, he also has a significant talent that I haven't, until now, even considered a 'talent' as such...his music. Would you agree that since his ability to create such music is directly related to his Skill ability, it could therefore be an off-shoot or example of Elderling musical talent? As well as his Skilled music, he is able to play the whistle...

While all Elderlings apparently had the ability to Skill, and therefore create simulacra artforms, it seems that they may also have had their own individual and unique talents? eg Wintrow can create stained-glass windows, Thick has his music, Nettle can create dreams, Fitz creates change (not to mention his inks and scrollwork etc)...??

(Apr-08-2011, 10:20 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: Now 'thul have had a long-lasting theory that half-elderlings are incapable of conceiving living children...

(Jun-18-2011, 08:32 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: An Elderling bond with a dragon is much like a wit bond, only on a higher level.

Valarya Wrote:Interesting. I don't think of it this way at all. Rather the dragon is allowing you to serve him/her and helps keep humans humble and free of war whilst serving the dragons. The dragon most definitely does NOT reciprocate the feeling of camaraderie or brotherhood, or so I'd think. The Skill is just that, magic of the dragons - and I don't compare it to a Wit-bond at all. That's just me, though. I don't know enough about how the Dragons interacted w/ the Elderlings of old & the only thing I have to go on are the frescoes or tapestries littered through the series.. or that one statue in Frengong that Lady Carrock sees of the Dragon holding a basket w/ an Elderling Queen in it.. that description almost makes me think the dragon is doing her bidding.

What do you think about that statue and what it depicts of the relationship between dragon/elderling?

(Nov-01-2011, 02:59 AM (UTC))Valarya Wrote:

(Jun-18-2011, 08:32 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: An Elderling bond with a dragon is much like a wit bond, only on a higher level.

Interesting. I don't think of it this way at all. Rather the dragon is allowing you to serve him/her and helps keep humans humble and free of war whilst serving the dragons. The dragon most definitely does NOT reciprocate the feeling of camaraderie or brotherhood, or so I'd think. The Skill is just that, magic of the dragons - and I don't compare it to a Wit-bond at all. That's just me, though. I don't know enough about how the Dragons interacted w/ the Elderlings of old & the only thing I have to go on are the frescoes or tapestries littered through the series.. or that one statue in Frengong that Lady Carrock sees of the Dragon holding a basket w/ an Elderling Queen in it.. that description almost makes me think the dragon is doing her bidding.

What do you think about that statue and what it depicts of the relationship between dragon/elderling?

(Nov-01-2011, 08:18 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: Finally someone that disagrees... Good...

The conclusion about incapability of having living children comes from several sources.
One part is the fact that even after the many years that passed from the liveship books through the first two rain wild books, Malta never had a child that survived.

(Nov-01-2011, 08:18 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: The children that are visibly non-human, are left to die, so though Elderling changes do happen, only the invisible changes are allowed to live beyond birth.

(Nov-01-2011, 08:18 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: Humans have no common tendency towards stillbirth, whereas Elderlings do have such tendency, or rather, have a tendency towards not having many children. The reason for that last tendency is that Elderlings are a long-lived species. The longer a lifespan, the less children there are, since it otherwise would cause overpopulation.

(Nov-01-2011, 08:18 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: Winthrow may not have had enough Elderling ancestry in him to understand dragons. At least not yet. He had spent quite a bit of time around serpents, but not around dragons. There is no indications that serpents could make Elderlings. They are, after all children. Thus there was nothing around him to let him change. If She Who Remembers had survived and managed to cocoon then hatch, it is quite possible that she might have chosen Winthrow as her Elderling, provided she'd also lived beyond the first months. It is quite likely that Althea, Winthrow and others like them grew to understand dragons after spending more time near them, like when trading up the rain wild river.

(Nov-01-2011, 02:10 PM (UTC))Valarya Wrote: I haven't read all of the short-stories.. and I've only read the 1st two books in the RWC once, so perhaps I'm missing something. She just doesn't have a child, yet - does it mention she has tried and been unsuccessful?

(Nov-01-2011, 02:10 PM (UTC))Valarya Wrote: I was always of the belief (and still am) that the humans just didn't know what was happening to their children, so they left them to die unnecessarily. All these "disfigured" children could have been the closest thing to Elderlings for years, yet they were never allowed to live. Eg. Thymara. I wonder if the dragons would be disgusted knowing the humans killed the most dragon-looking children for generations & generations...

(Nov-01-2011, 02:10 PM (UTC))Valarya Wrote: Over-population is the #1 thing that could sway me. It's that way with most beings in books who either live a very long time or are immortal, isn't it? Very low birth-rate. I can live with that.

CoD-level spoiling

It would appear that at least some of the theories 'thul had on Elderlings and how they come to be were true. For an Elderling child to be viable and alive at birth it requires a certain level of development. Thus it was not possible for Malta/reyn to have a living child until after their changes had progressed to a certain point. Had Tintaglia not abandoned them, that point would have been reached sooner.

It seems to 'thul odd that children born to Elderlings require the stuff of dragons to live at all, so they theorize that fully formed Elderlings (ones that have been finished by dragons in all aspects) possibly have more viable children, though the children will need dragon proximity to become full elderlings themselves.

It was certainly verified that not only do Elderlings prefer warmth, but in fact require it for their transformations to get to certain points. The water that Thymara & Rapskal bathed in at the revival of Kelsingra might indicate that they also need water for their bodies to fill out more quickly, though this is uncertain. Considering that Elderling bodies often are bigger than human bodies, they need more fluids to keep them fully stocked. It could be drunk, but it seems absorbing them directly through the skin is quicker.

As for Thymara herself, 'thul believe that she will always develop more willowy than many of the other Elderlings. This is partially due to her gender, but more due to her wings. For her wings to be viable for flight, her body needs to be quite lithe and light, otherwise the wings would need to be gigantic. It is clear that she would need to develop much more to gain flight, as well as practice much like Rapskal said. Not only does she need to grow her wings larger, but she needs to increase her muscular strength in the back and upper chest, the muscle groups that power the wings.
'thul believe the first forms of flight will be short gliding, allowing her to jump much further than others and drop further harmlessly. Then it will be short distances, before eventually (with practice) going further and further.

(Feb-14-2012, 09:28 AM (UTC))thul Wrote:

CoD-level spoiling

It would appear that at least some of the theories 'thul had on Elderlings and how they come to be were true. For an Elderling child to be viable and alive at birth it requires a certain level of development. Thus it was not possible for Malta/reyn to have a living child until after their changes had progressed to a certain point. Had Tintaglia not abandoned them, that point would have been reached sooner.

It seems to 'thul odd that children born to Elderlings require the stuff of dragons to live at all, so they theorize that fully formed Elderlings (ones that have been finished by dragons in all aspects) possibly have more viable children, though the children will need dragon proximity to become full elderlings themselves.

Warning! CoD spoilers within:

What makes you think the child isn't viable based on the stage-of-Elderling Malta/Reyn are?

I really don't think it's that at all, but that SINCE Malta and Reyn have been changed, period, it makes their bodies less able to produce viable life. I think it's merely based on two things:

1. they are less human than before... so how can they expect their bodies to work like human bodies and get the same results?

2. Dragon Magic is involved.

I stick by my pre-CoD statement that all the babies born around so much dragon-magic (Rain Wilders, etc) are semi-Elderling themselves.... babies already changed to something not-fully-human. Unfortunately, like Greft, their bodies will eventually not work like a humans, and not be able to stay alive. This is why those half-formed need a dragon's help.

I suspect it was very common of old for Elderlings to have this problem with off-spring, else why would Tarman have the memory of what needed to be done?