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+--- Thread: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* (/thread-18.html)
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Chrischa - May-06-2010
Yeah, good point. Maybe because these creatures are inventions of humans, they also come with their own intelligence?
This book says that throughout human evolution, animals have been the only other moving, self-conscious beings living along us on this planet, and that is where our fascination with animals comes from. They are integrated into our evolution.
He also says that throughout history, every culture except our modern world has invented complex rituals to deal with the killing of animals by humans; rituals of shredding off blame, asking forgiveness, honoring the animals' soul, abating the anger of the spirit guardian.
So maybe by having these mythical creatures perform similar acts of violence and murder against human beings, they also shouldered a part of the guild that humans carry?
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Farseer - May-06-2010
(May-06-2010, 09:39 AM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: Fascinating, isn't it?! That makes so much sense! I have always wondered why cultures the world over have invented dragons, even without any contact between them whatsoever.
Great addition to the thread, Chrischa! I did previously add some things about dragons in human history etc to my bearded dragon post but, as they seem to have disappeared, I will try and touch on it again...
I also think it's interesting that cultures throughout the world have invented dragons and it puts me in mind of (I love that saying...so Hobb-like
!) the Fool. I think it was in AQ where he asked if Fitz believed in dragons or if he'd ever wondered how it was that Elderlings knew to create simulacra and other artworks in the forms of dragons if dragons had never existed in the world...that surely real-life dragons had been the inspiration for such imaginings.I find that I tend to agree with this viewpoint (that all mythical creatures have their foundations in reality) even if dragons have only been made as an extension of, say, dinosaurs. In saying that, just because the remains of a true dragon-like creature have never been found, doesn't mean to say that they have never existed, just that there has never been anything unearthed to prove their existance
.Mason's ideas do make lots of sense and are wonderfully thought-provoking!! As far as the human mind depending on animals, it is well-known that a person can make significant improvements in their physical and mental health if exposed to a relationship with an animal/pet of some kind...that humans with an animal companion tend to experience happier, more fulfilling lives.
I could also see his point in how we would need to create something outside of ourselves to express our various fears, particularly with the example of aliens - love it!
As for rituals when killing animals, these have most likely been put in place mainly due to our history of animal sacrifice which was/is usually undertaken as part of a religious-type rite, as a way to appease gods etc. As far as I am aware though, the sacrificial rituals related to animal sacrifices DO still happen in many modern cultures and though it no longer forms a part of everyday life for most of society, rituals at the point of death are STILL an important part of some cultures when animals are slaughtered for the consumption of meat.
An example of this latter point would be Halal slaughter which takes place in many Australian abattoirs (and I imagine many other abattoirs throughout the world). During Halal slaughter (though I am by no means an expert!), the person conducting the stunning of the live animal is a trained slaughterman and the person undertaking the ritual slaughter is a Muslim slaughterman. The Muslim slaughterman chants a prayer as he severs the beast's windpipe and carotid artery and also each time there has been a break in the slaughtering process.
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - redchild - May-07-2010
(May-06-2010, 09:39 AM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: He also says that in our modern age, we have done the same when we invented these myths about space aliens. We live nowadays surrounded by technology which most of us can't begin to understand, and which is capable of destroying us and everything around us. Just like nature could be overwhelming to the primal man, so this technology stirs a fear in us so we have invented mythical beings who always have technology which is more advanced then our own, and who can judge and destroy us with it.
Interesting. It seems nature and technology both play very important roles in our development of ethics and morals. While in tribal society we fear the forces of nature (we still do, actually,) in a modern technological society we fear the potential of our own creations. This is why I love fantasy and sci-fi-- what more entertaining way to ask these big questions?
Quote:I have always wondered why cultures the world over have invented dragons, even without any contact between them whatsoever.
While humans did not come into contact with dinosaurs, early mammals certainly did-- as their prey. Their genetic memory probably passed on to us, hence our antagonism/fascination with reptiles. I suppose humans will never get over the fear of being eaten even if we are pretty much on top of the food chain.
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Nuytsia - May-11-2010
(May-06-2010, 01:27 PM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: He also says that throughout history, every culture except our modern world has invented complex rituals to deal with the killing of animals by humans; rituals of shredding off blame, asking forgiveness, honoring the animals' soul, abating the anger of the spirit guardian.
So maybe by having these mythical creatures perform similar acts of violence and murder against human beings, they also shouldered a part of the guild that humans carry?
I knew some cultures had those rituals but I didn't realise every (non-modern) culture did. Interesting! Hmmm that is also an interesting thought about the guilt of humans for killing animals being one possible motive behind the mythical half-animals that kill humans.
(May-06-2010, 09:39 AM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: Just like nature could be overwhelming to the primal man, so this technology stirs a fear in us so we have invented mythical beings who always have technology which is more advanced then our own, and who can judge and destroy us with it.
That's true, but I think we still fear nature as well. In some ways there only a thin veneer between us and the potentially destructive power of nature - although it's more natural disasters rather than wild animals these days that we fear. But it is kind of ironic that the technology we use to try to tame nature's power is now something we also fear!!!
(May-07-2010, 09:25 AM (UTC))redchild Wrote:Quote:I have always wondered why cultures the world over have invented dragons, even without any contact between them whatsoever.While humans did not come into contact with dinosaurs, early mammals certainly did-- as their prey. Their genetic memory probably passed on to us, hence our antagonism/fascination with reptiles. I suppose humans will never get over the fear of being eaten even if we are pretty much on top of the food chain.
I was watching a TV show about the dissection of a crocodile tonight and the 'armour' on the back and tail are incredibly dragon like to me! I think the largest documented crocodile is over 6 metres long - that's pretty damn huge - and it is rumoured they used to be a lot bigger than that. I think something like a 10 metre long crocodile is definitely getting into dragon size territory!!!!
I cannot explain where the real world inspiration for the wings of a dragon could possibly come from though!
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - redchild - May-12-2010
(May-11-2010, 03:13 PM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote:(May-06-2010, 01:27 PM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: He also says that throughout history, every culture except our modern world has invented complex rituals to deal with the killing of animals by humans; rituals of shredding off blame, asking forgiveness, honoring the animals' soul, abating the anger of the spirit guardian.
So maybe by having these mythical creatures perform similar acts of violence and murder against human beings, they also shouldered a part of the guild that humans carry?
I knew some cultures had those rituals but I didn't realise every (non-modern) culture did. Interesting! Hmmm that is also an interesting thought about the guilt of humans for killing animals being one possible motive behind the mythical half-animals that kill humans.
If you're interested in learning about the similarities of myths between cultures (he argues that all myths have more similarities than differences,) you can look up Joseph Campbell's book Myths to Live By, or you can watch the very good documentary series "The Power of Myth" with Campbell and Bill Moyers. He does mention the dissonance humans experience when it comes towards killing animals.
Quote:I was watching a TV show about the dissection of a crocodile tonight and the 'armour' on the back and tail are incredibly dragon like to me! I think the largest documented crocodile is over 6 metres long - that's pretty damn huge - and it is rumoured they used to be a lot bigger than that. I think something like a 10 metre long crocodile is definitely getting into dragon size territory!!!!
I cannot explain where the real world inspiration for the wings of a dragon could possibly come from though!
Maybe pterodactyls or bats? Possibly even birds as they are descendants of the dinosaurs. Just imagine a chicken with scales and big teeth. Eastern dragons have no wings but they fly as well. Why is it that all (mythical) dragons fly? There are no modern lizards I can think of right now that can fly (not just glide.)
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Nuytsia - May-12-2010
Thanks for those references!
Oh I hadn't thought of gliding lizards ! That could sort of fit but to my knowledge there's been no 10 metre long gliding lizards (at least not since humans evolved).
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Chrischa - May-14-2010
(May-06-2010, 02:48 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: An example of this latter point would be Halal slaughter which takes place in many Australian abattoirs (and I imagine many other abattoirs throughout the world). During Halal slaughter (though I am by no means an expert!), the person conducting the stunning of the live animal is a trained slaughterman and the person undertaking the ritual slaughter is a Muslim slaughterman. The Muslim slaughterman chants a prayer as he severs the beast's windpipe and carotid artery and also each time there has been a break in the slaughtering process.
I hadn't even thought about the Islamic Halal slaughter yet, but you're right. And according to Mason's book, this sort of thing has happened throughout human history, that only those sanctified, cleared of blame, or acting for the will of some other, authoritive being would be allowed to kill animals. It even happens in our own society because you and me will never have to slaughter a cow. We buy our meat in nicely presented, anonymous packages in the butcher's display window. And we pile the guild and responsability for the killing onto the shoulders of the people working behind the walls of the concealed slaughterhouses, people whom we generally perceive as cruel and almost mad to be doing the job they're doing. Thus we shift blame.
I'm talking very generally here, of course, I'm in no means looking down on the people doing those jobs.
(May-11-2010, 03:13 PM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote: I was watching a TV show about the dissection of a crocodile tonight and the 'armour' on the back and tail are incredibly dragon like to me! I think the largest documented crocodile is over 6 metres long - that's pretty damn huge - and it is rumoured they used to be a lot bigger than that. I think something like a 10 metre long crocodile is definitely getting into dragon size territory!!!!
I cannot explain where the real world inspiration for the wings of a dragon could possibly come from though!
Given the fact that our fantasy does nothing more then piece together things from our experiece, this seems very understandable to me. That is why, for example, we can't think of a non-existing colour. So to create these mythical creatures, people would have taken the armour of a crocodile, the wings of a bat, the skull of a horse, the tail of a lizard, ect. and put them all together. In short, they'd take everything which seems dangerous and indestructible in animals and put them in a dragon.
(May-12-2010, 07:54 AM (UTC))redchild Wrote: If you're interested in learning about the similarities of myths between cultures (he argues that all myths have more similarities than differences,) you can look up Joseph Campbell's book Myths to Live By, or you can watch the very good documentary series "The Power of Myth" with Campbell and Bill Moyers. He does mention the dissonance humans experience when it comes towards killing animals.
I read Cambell's book 'Hero of a Thousand Faces' and that was very intersting, I'd recommend that too. I'd love to read some more books like this which provide insight into human behaviour throught investigating our history, but I don't know where to start.
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Nuytsia - May-14-2010
(May-14-2010, 12:53 PM (UTC))Chrischa Wrote: It even happens in our own society because you and me will never have to slaughter a cow. We buy our meat in nicely presented, anonymous packages in the butcher's display window.Except that Farseer in fact lives on a cattle station! Hehehe ironic!
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Farseer - Jul-28-2010
Hey Chrischa and Nuytsia...here it is...I found it, at last
! Now to remember how I had planned to respond!
RE: Humans and Dragons *contains spoilers for Liveship and Tawny Man books* - Nuytsia - Aug-11-2010
I was just posting on the Farseer name thread about Fitz deciding to help save Icefyre..... anyhoooo
I was thinking the other day about the implications of the Fool's (apparent) mission to reinstate dragons to their former glory. This has been discussed a fair bit on theplenty, but I can't help thinking that the outcome could certainly go either way. It could just as easily result in more war and strife for humans and more destruction of the environment as it could somehow curtail human activities in these areas....
So wouldn't it be a cool twist if (intentionally or unintentionally - cooler if intentionally Bwahahaha) the future the Fool is facilitating is more like the Pale Woman's vision of total annihilation!!! Maybe this is an inevitable future and all activities of White Prophets are futile in any case!
Damn I cannot NOT go off topic , but I also find the PW's intentions intriguing. Sure she sucks, but I sort of am interested in knowing more of what she was on about with her vision of world destruction and rebirth. I guess now we'll never know!