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+--- Thread: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] (/thread-202.html)
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - assasin - Oct-13-2010
Of course diplomacy will be a part of it. But who would you prefer to dealk with. A grateful ex-slave or a pissed off slaveowning noble. I take the exslave.
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - Farseer - Oct-13-2010
(Oct-13-2010, 01:24 AM (UTC))assasin Wrote: I take the exslave.
I concur
! Hmm, I can't help but wonder if Burrich's freedom earring will come into play somewhere, with Swift, as its new owner, to take on a pivotal role in some way. He has a family connection to both Chalced and the slave trade, and is in a perfect position for the job, in that he is also Witted and had connections to the palace via the Wit Coterie and his relationship with Fitz. The earring certainly assisted Amber in Bingtown's slave changes, so why not Chalced? Getting a little off-topic but there you have it
!
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - redchild - Oct-15-2010
(Oct-12-2010, 05:02 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: War alone, even though successful, would just postpone the cycle and time would continue in its current course, trundling on to the next phase of war, such as what happened between the Out Islanders and the Six Duchies. Certainly the SD won in the time of King Wisdom but to what end? Eventually the Out Islanders returned for their revenge and then it began again. It was only when diplomacy was also applied, along with the 'winning' of the Red Ships War, that permanent change could ensue.
War will almost always fester revenge (revenge that almost always then has to be outplayed later) but diplomacy, with or without war, allows for a greater opportunity to forgive, mend and renew.
Also I believe it to be the Fool's mission in life to end such cycles. He prophesied the return of the dragons to be the crux of this change, so perhaps they will play a large role in ending the feuds with Chalced. We saw how Dutiful's quest to reach Icefyre helped cement relations with the Outislanders, so perhaps dragons will be at the center of events with Chalced, too.
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - Farseer - Oct-16-2010
Yes, you mirror my thoughts there, redchild
, and I tried to reflect this a little elsewhere in my comments on Fool and change/balances in the Gernia and other threads. The changing of cycles (and/or putting time onto a differently alotted path) and bringing balance to the world are two of the core themes that I see in each of RH's works, and these are played out in each book, each series and, on an even grander scale, throughout the overall RotE tale as a whole. EDIT: include the RotE-related short stories here as well as they each have a change and a balancing that takes place within the plot, and these then contribute to the balancing and changing of the entire world.
Among many other things, so far returning balance has been seen in ways that include the Elderling and dragons' return to the world (the obvious one!); the forging of relationships or treaties not previously enjoyed (a couple of examples would be the SD viewing of the Out Islanders or Rain Wilders as an extension of themselves rather then overtly different or strange, as well as the Witted and Unwitted reaching increased levels of understanding...though this latter is still yet to reach a climax and 'final settling') or even the blurring, if not quite abolishing, of social segregation and injustice (view of the worth of ones such as Thick, the keepers, slaves etc). Still there are so many (too many) other large and small-scaled examples of balance and change!!!
While it may seem that these themes of balance and changing cycles are key resolutions for the entire RotE 'final solution' only, they must also be present, I think, in the ending of war with Chalced in whatever form it will take. This is because a) they are key themes of the books and overall tale so far and b) they follow Fool's prophecies and future for the world (as you mentioned).
Of course, this doesn't mean that the world will reach a level of perfection, just balance...and balance or change does not mean it brings only happiness or a corny ending in its wake (for starters, one must also have sadness to create balance and that is a direct contradiction to happiness
!). In creating balance, the situation doesn't create perfection for one element or the other, or even a 'happy ending' for some or all as we may imgaine 'happy' to be for the RotE tale. The same will be true for Chalced's future as for the world's...it will be brought about by balance and change but these will not bring perfection to Chalced or its place within the rest of the realm.
Sorry for the multiple edits...I haven't slept in days (more on that later!) and I need
!
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - redchild - Oct-17-2010
^ Great analysis
There is also the mystery of what happened to the Elderlings and dragons. What happened in the past that wiped them all out? It seemed they had achieved that "balance" yet even they were wiped out. Was it really a natural cataclysm? I highly doubt a single large earthquake could have wiped out the entire species. Perhaps there was some force that subverted the balance that started a domino effect that ultimately destroyed them?
I'd also like to bring up Fermi's paradox, where it is proposed that as a civilization grows in power, it will ultimately reach a point where it will destroy itself. If this is the case for the RotE, then the Fool's mission to bring humanity's wagon out of its rutted track is much more profound. The small changes that contribute to restoring balance, such as those you've described, would also be very important to avoid self-destruction.
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - Farseer - Oct-17-2010
(Oct-17-2010, 02:34 AM (UTC))redchild Wrote: I highly doubt a single large earthquake could have wiped out the entire species. Perhaps there was some force that subverted the balance that started a domino effect that ultimately destroyed them?
I agree that there was more than just the earthquake/volcano involved, and that a domino effect occured...something magical, something to do with giants and maybe even trapped sorcerers beneath the earth or in a cave (still thinking on this and so not quite ready to fully disclose or back up my sketchy theory!).
I also love your idea that it was the 'balance' that was first subverted, triggering the realm's downfall, and it is therefore the balance that requires restoration (which is exactly what Fool is doing, piece by piece).
(Oct-17-2010, 02:34 AM (UTC))redchild Wrote: I'd also like to bring up Fermi's paradox,
Love it
! We could use it as a basis for more talks in the Voyages of discovery thread as well!(Oct-17-2010, 02:34 AM (UTC))redchild Wrote: where it is proposed that as a civilization grows in power, it will ultimately reach a point where it will destroy itself. If this is the case for the RotE, then the Fool's mission to bring humanity's wagon out of its rutted track is much more profound. The small changes that contribute to restoring balance, such as those you've described, would also be very important to avoid self-destruction.
Wow, yes!!! I'm going to have to think on this some more before responding further.
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - assasin - Oct-18-2010
In my opinion the abominations had something to do wit the extinction event.
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - Farseer - Nov-08-2010
(Oct-17-2010, 02:34 AM (UTC))redchild Wrote: I'd also like to bring up Fermi's paradox, where it is proposed that as a civilization grows in power, it will ultimately reach a point where it will destroy itself.
Just a quick comment as I think this fits quite nicely with Fermi's Paradox!
In Chapter Twenty-Six of SOM, Ronica is speaking with Keffria about Ephron and his refusal to trade up the Rain River like his father and grandmother before him. She says,"And though his father and grandmother had traded in Rain Wild goods, he always felt they were tainted...too much magic. He always felt that sooner or later, such magic would have to be paid for. And he did not think it was honourable, in a way, for him to bring back to our world the magic of another place and time, a magic that had, perhaps, been the downfall of another folk. Perhaps the downfall of the entire Cursed Shores. Sometimes he spoke of it, late at night, saying he feared we would destroy ourselves and our world, just as the Elder folk did."
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - Farseer - Mar-15-2011
(Oct-12-2010, 05:02 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: The eventual toppling of Chalced may be started with something as simple as causing a break in the slave 'elfbark cycle', and then other resulting factors may come into play. Truly, the resolutions we have seen so far have all come about with only relatively small changes or shifts in perspective.
Throwing some very sketchy thoughts out here...it doesn't all overly 'fit' with this thread but I can't find the other, more appropriate elfbark/Chalced post I'm chasing and this does still kind of follow on from my old 'elfbark cycle comment' as seen above...
Some questions:
Chalcedians are known for their wonderous architecture ...why?
Chalcedians have long held border disputes with Rain Wilders and those of Bingtown, even arguing that the Rain River and Bingtown itself are well within Chalced's true jurisdiction...why?
Chalcedians feed elfbark to their slaves...why (other than the obvious reasons which we have spoken about before in the thread I can't find!)
?Some possible answers?:
Could it be that the architects and builders of Chalced were once Elderlings and many are therefore now of Elderling stock, like Fitz etc? After all, Chalced also is a place that meets the region of the MK and the coast (the inland and the sea).
Even further, could Chalced's original 'crop' of slaves have been made up of these Elderlings and future generations of slaves then bred from those original, though long-living, Elderlings? As well as later added to from other regions of the realm?
Elderlings incorporated art and artistic form into many of their buildings and construction projects elsewhere throughout the realm so why not in Chalced? Could this explain their stand-out architecture?
To also take this further, possibly the buildings are even original Elderling dwellings that still remain fully intact?
The slaves (many of whom may be of Elderling stock and therefore Skilled in some form) are fed elfbark to kill off any lingering Skill talent, as well as to make them feel the full brunt of the despair that comes in elfbark's wake, not to mention the dependency that comes from a likely addiction. Why else?
None of this overly fits with my black hair, black eyes link with the Skill theory, as Chalcedians are not known for those features like those from the SD and Out Islands are,
but we'll leave that for its own thread and concentrate on Chalced?Probably all madness on my part but the main thing that jumps out at me is the architecture...
RE: A way to end the war with chalced [posible spoilers] - 'thul - Mar-15-2011
These beings get the feeling that you're pulling at straws here, farseer...
just because elderlings in RotE were superior in most ways, does not mean everything good there stems from them...
a more logical reason for the superior architecture would be that they have either had need of it, or excess resources that meant they could go to excess in their architecture...
The need would possibly be due to natural conditions (harsh weather, harsh sun, quakes, etc.)...