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+--- Thread: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) (/thread-22.html)
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - 'thul - Jul-08-2011
It could almost as easily be that the Fool is, as you said, "different", or that (s)he is like some amphibians capable of switching gender based on need.
In the case of the Fool, what form of reproductive organs (s)he has matters little. In the cultures present in RotE such is not shown in public. If (s)he can grow or deflate chest at need, that would generally be enough to "visibly" change gender. Especially considering the bone structure of the Fool's face. It is fine enough to be either gender, and there is naturally no beard.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - fool-ish - Jul-08-2011
Robin Hobb has certainly left us all something to think about with regard to the fool. I suspect that was her intention and from what I've read, opinion is very much divided. Indeed, my own opinion may well change on reading Liveships. We shall see and in the meantime, it's good to read other thoughts on the subject.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - Omie - Jul-08-2011
I believe Robin Hobb deliberately planted not-quite-evidence to suggest that the Fool is both male and female and not only kept the 'evidence' vague but continually changed it so that readers would always be left in doubt.
But at the same time I think that people are missing the point when they question the Fool's sex. His ambiguity is what makes the character. He even sang a song about it! I refer to him with the male pronouns without really caring if he possesses, er, a dangle, simply because 'he' is thought of as male for six books out of nine. As for Amber, she is undoubtedly a female character. She's not a bloke in a frock. Similarly, Lord Golden is effete but definitely male. The Fool of the Assassin books is androgynous in a childlike way.
'Is the Fool a man or a woman?' Yes. Or possibly no.
He's either and neither at once and that's kind of the point. Gender is neither as binary nor as important as people make it out to be. It's so refreshing to read fiction where that point is addressed, and even more refreshing that it's dealt with so succinctly in a fantasy series when even writers of supposedly more 'relevant' fiction stumble over the issue time and again
EDIT: I should point out I'm not criticising anybody. It's interesting to look at the evidence for the Fool's sex. But I just think the interest should be framed more as 'Was this a deliberate attempt by Hobb to throw us?' rather than 'Does this prove the Fool is male/female?'. It's also fun to re-read the books and see just how crafty Hobb could be by leading our suspicions and then thwarting them again. (If you can call things like having him cover his chest with a blanket 'crafty').
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - fool-ish - Jul-08-2011
The fool is the fool and a wonderful character. One of my favourites, ever! I like the fact Robin Hobb has me changing my mind as often as my socks about this character when reading these books, but ultimately, the fool's gender matters not a jot as it all adds to and makes for a great tale.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - NeverBeenWise - Jul-10-2011
Going back to the Fool and apricots, I am of the opinion that he likes them so much because they are a link to his childhood. Clerres is much farther south than the Six Duchies or even Bingtown/the Rain Wilds. The climate would be a good deal warmer, good for producing fairly large, sweet fruits. Didn't the Fool once reveal to Fitz that the members of his birth family were farmers? They could have cultivated apricots, for all we know! The fruits would bring back memories of the one time his life was not tainted by politics and intrigue, when he was pretty much free to just be a normal kid. He didn't have that for long, because when he was eight he dreamed about the "Fitz fixes feist's fits, fat suffices" that he should tell his Catalyst, and I'm assuming that by that time he was living at the school.
EDIT: Also, why the heck is Beloved so interested in the Attract Birds charm? Any and all theories welcome, as I'm really kind of stumped, except for my wild out of the blue hypothesis that "well, maybe there's a dragon/Elderling type deal between the Fool's people and some sort of avian creatures!" Which is probably not it.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - Farseer - Jul-10-2011
(Jul-10-2011, 05:30 PM (UTC))NeverBeenWise Wrote: Going back to the Fool and apricots, I am of the opinion that he likes them so much because they are a link to his childhood.
I like that theory, NeverBeenWise!
(Jul-10-2011, 05:30 PM (UTC))NeverBeenWise Wrote: EDIT: Also, why the heck is Beloved so interested in the Attract Birds charm? Any and all theories welcome, as I'm really kind of stumped, except for my wild out of the blue hypothesis that "well, maybe there's a dragon/Elderling type deal between the Fool's people and some sort of avian creatures!" Which is probably not it.
Another one of my "I've always just thought that..." theories
is that Lord Golden was attempting to use the charms to bring dragons back, or something akin to that. Often the RotE dragons are likened to birds (I know that Fitz immediately thought of birds when he saw the dragon in the city in AQ. From memory he even mentioned it as being cormorant or even pheasant-like?) and so a charm that is used to attract birds could also be tweaked to attract dragons? This would particularly be true if the person wielding the hedge-magic were proficient in their craft? EDIT: Possibly this could also be used for Elderlings as an added extra, due to the Elderling/dragon connection? Hmm...I just don't know.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - NeverBeenWise - Jul-11-2011
I figured out what the fruit was in the Rain Wilds! It's a mango! "A mango?" you ask. "Aren't mangos green and red and only a little yellow?" Some are, yes. But my mom just bought a box of gorgeous yellow (well, actually golden) mangos. They look like this: http://cambreenotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/yellowmango.jpg
And yes, the seeds are hairy! A picture of the seed of the mango I just ate: http://s714.photobucket.com/albums/ww142/KerianCyvaar/?action=view¤t=Photoon2011-07-11at1544.jpg
(The images are rather large, that's why I included them as links.)
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - Farseer - Jul-11-2011
^
I can just imagine you shrieking and scrabbling to the computer to share that with us, NeverBeenWise!
Yup, mangoes are definitely yellow and the seeds definitely hairy!
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - Omie - Jul-11-2011
(Jul-10-2011, 05:30 PM (UTC))NeverBeenWise Wrote: EDIT: Also, why the heck is Beloved so interested in the Attract Birds charm?
Oh good, I'm glad I'm not the only one to be curious about that.
I thought of two possibilties. It could have been because the charm was not entirely specific. In the same way that the anti-predator charm unsettled Fitz, the charm worked only with the generalities. Perhaps, for instance, rather than attracting birds it attracted non-humans who wear feathers (and the Fool's brief stint as Realder's girl in her feather crown qualified him for the latter, with the fact that he really wasn't entirely human putting him squarely in column 'a').
I think another possibility is that it was foreshadowing the way the Fool saw the charms as potential tools for his own agenda. He only used hedge magic to aid himself in surviving the Piebalds, but perhaps that was a bit of a hint that he considered the possibility of tweaking the bird charm to work on dragons. Maybe he wasn't attracted to it because of its magic, but because of his own personal curiosity.
Incidentally, I've wondered if the carving of himself, Nighteyes and Fitz might have been some adapted and elaborated hedge magic too. It was skill stone as well, but I wonder if the Fitz -> Fool figurine connection was actually a way for them to communicate without a skill bond. It would be a convenient way for Robin Hobb to continue their story line without going against her word that she would not write another Fitz and the Fool series, if ever she decided to write another series that included one of the pair individually. After all 'I have never been wise' was not really a memory, but a thought, and an answer to the statement that it would be wise of the two never to cross paths again.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books) - Nuytsia - Aug-21-2011
(Sep-12-2010, 12:32 PM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote: But as to his general ability to open and close the door to a room silently and without being seen I have no idea!!!!! I guess just very stealthy. As to his not being detectable to the Wit and having no smell.... that started to really creep me out reading AA and the bit where Fitz realises the Forged ones are undetectable to his Wit sense.
I have already forgotten whether it is explicitly stated in AA that the Fool is undetectable to Fitz's Wit sense, but it DOES say that the puppy Smithy realised the Fool had no smell and that's when Fitz first realised that too. What DOES it mean!!! (apart from my initial suspicion that the 6 duchies people just don't wash very often in comparison....)
Replying to myself here, but I've always wondered about Fitz (and Smithy) saying that the Fool had no detectable smell. So I'm re-reading the LST books and of course immediately went WHA? when I read that when Amber had a nightmare Paragon could SMELL her fear sweat. So it would seem that Amber is not without smell? (unless this is just an oversight by RH...... I guess it COULD happen!)
But then I came across Farseer's comments in another thread (below) that mention that a glamour can involve influencing smell. And although Lord Golden says Fitz is the only one not taken in by his glamour I have serious doubts on that. Then again, it would mean the glamour would have to have been working before he was Lord Golden if it indeed IS what makes him seem to have no smell.
Seems a lot of trouble to go to though!!
I would have thought it more likely a 'natural' thing rather than a glamour.
If so, not sure why Amber smells
(May-21-2010, 06:53 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: The Others were able to change their appearance, smell etc through the use of a glamour over visitors to Others Island (Fitz saw through it, Dutiful was mesmerised by it and Kennit was a bit of both on different occasions, though his charm eventually allowed him to recognise it for what it was).
Fool even spoke of himself as having a glamour and it was this that enabled him to successfully maintain his role as Lord Golden (I thought this was particularly interesting!). At one point, Fitz asked him how it was that he had suddenly become so popular at court. To this, Fool complained that everyone was taken in by his 'glamour' except Fitz...it was only Fitz who could see through it and so saw him as he was.