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+--- Thread: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) (/thread-22.html)
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - Valarya - Mar-14-2013
(Mar-14-2013, 08:26 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: It is ignorance of human nature to believe anyone could become a lover of a best friend who mislead you to believe they were a different gender while also acknowledging that they are in love with you. People would feel betrayed. They would not trust that person because they carried on a lie. They would never have a chance to know the "real/true" person because they would slam up walls of distrust, resentment, repulsion even. Repulsion, because of the betrayal as well as the incompatible sexual orientation. (Fitz was clearly heterosexual). Who could be attracted to someone they had always thought of as the gender opposite of their own? Even if that friend looked beautiful/handsome as their true gender it would not matter. To suddenly find out that the person you thought you knew enough to consider a trusted close friend was in fact a female posing as a male would end most friendships instantly. You could not feel you knew that person. You could never see them the same way. They would be someone else. You would not have a chance to develop a friendship with that new person. The ingredients for friendship would be lacking. Most people would walk, if not storm, away from that friendship and not want to look back.
I just wanted to interject that most of the people on this forum feel exactly the same way about why a Fitz/Fool relationship could never work.
I felt the need to clarify that Farseer is only telling you what a large majority of other fans 'wanted' from the ending - and how they reacted.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - o0Ampy0o - Mar-15-2013
Thanks Valarya. Not knowing what most people here thought I was compelled to address the topic.
(Mar-14-2013, 09:42 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: As far as 'know what he knows', a number of readers take this to mean that Fitz knows that Fool is a female but it is unacknowledged...a lie he feeds himself...and so a reveal from Fool that reveals it to be true would likely be not so dramatic as if there had never been any hints or signs?
Here I believe the opposite. If Fitz believed or suspected the Fool was female he would have had those ideas cross his mind or he would have said something to that effect. IOW, Hobb would have written that into the text. Instead, Fitz never gave the notion credence. He thought "Jek thinks the Fool is a woman" or "Starling thinks the Fool is a woman." [not exact quotes] This to me is what counts and is what we as readers should heed. Fitz acted as the barometer of this gender ambiguity issue and seemed to take the Fool's input/defense as a given. Fitz did not question the Fool's gender. He questioned the Fool's sexual orientation. He was incredulous over being perceived as Lord Golden's lover. He resented the Fool's apparent cultivation of this perception. The words between them were chosen to force the Fool to explain himself as a person. Had Fitz suspected the Fool was female the confrontation would have been different because that specific topic would have been a defining issue that went far beyond "who are you.....I don't know who you are?" [not an exact quote].
(Mar-14-2013, 09:42 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote:(Mar-14-2013, 08:26 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: Kettricken- I am not 100% invested in a Kettricken/Fitz romantic alternative ending
(Mar-14-2013, 08:26 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: the sexual tension between them.
The tension between Kettricken and Fitz was no doubt deliberate but I never felt that anything between them could truly happen. Actually, their relationship is definitely a part of the tale that I have very much enjoyed.Though Fitz and Kettricken were far more 'of an age' than Verity and Kettricken ever were, much of their attraction for each other did stem from their shared connection with Verity. If Fitz had not been joined with Verity via the Skill, he'd never have had intimate experiences of Kettricken to clearly draw on and feed his attraction to her. He'd certainly had no desire for her previous to her times with Verity at Buckkeep eg while he was in the Mountain Kingdom and Kettricken was trying to kill him!
Through Verity, Fitz at times awoke smelling her smell and feeling the touch of her skin and hair etc even when he was clearly in love with Molly, and sharing Molly's bed. Poor man. Just as it was difficult for those who witnessed the mating of Tintaglia and Icefyre above the Witness Stones of Buck to not be physically stirred, it would be difficult for Fitz *not* to have some kind of physical attraction to Kettricken after that. And the same would be true of Kettricken after her night with Fitz-as-Verity (or is that Verity-as-Fitz?). The likeness Fitz had to Verity eg Kettricken said something to Fitz like, 'Oh, don't look at me with my lord's eyes', and also the family connection and history that they'd shared would also have played a role.
It would certainly have (and may yet still?!) proven all the old rumours to be true should they have ever made a romantic match. Regal had let it be rumoured around that Fitz and Kettricken had plottted against Shrewd and that the child of her body was the Bastard's. So close to the truth was he!
I took the "...my lord's eyes" reference to mean the attitude in Fitz's eyes as a Farseer family member bearing resemblance to his father and uncle Verity not anything Skill related as in Verity through Fitz. Fitz looked like his father and his father's brother shared physical traits that may not have been constant like literally having similar looking eyes but a similarity that activated with an attitude more like having the same smile or laugh or walk or temper. Stagnant they may not be similar but in action they are. Whatever Fitz was thinking, Verity had looked at Kettricken with the same attitude. Family members can think similarly as well as share similar physical and behavioral features.
(Mar-14-2013, 09:42 AM (UTC))Farseer Wrote:(Mar-14-2013, 08:26 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: but the shadow king + queen partnership between them I am.
(Mar-14-2013, 08:26 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: They could have ruled as queen and shadow king never acting on the sexual tension between them.
I believe that they have so ruled and did so without acting on this tension. Fitz himself said at the end of Fool's Fate that he had bit-by-bit wrestled the power from Chade to hand to Dutiful when he eventually became King-in-Waiting. Though he lived away from Buckkeep after he and Molly married, he did play out the role of a 'shadow king' during the years that he spent wooing her, and his role as a 'shadow king' also later took him to Buckkeep often. In this, he has indeed ruled with his queen, Kettricken, as a shadow king.
Although Fitz recalled the swapping of bodies with Verity a couple of times and noticed the scent and taste of Kettricken when he first recovered his body after Verity used it to have relations with her, many independent scenes of sexual tension were written in a way that justified attraction between them outside of any tie to Verity or the Skill. Kettricken was also Witted and had a connection to Nighteyes. That is a huge factor in favor of her being intimate with Fitz, (not sexually intimate per se).
Hobb's inconsistency in writing of the ending.......in the last chapter the way she ran through some events was a fast way to provide closure. There were too many descriptive explanations as opposed to experiential passages in the last chapter. IOW, she wrote a few sentences describing the way things worked out. She did not have the same balance of activity intermingled with description she had demonstrated throughout the 9 books leading up to this section. We did not see enough happening. Instead Fitz narrated what happened. Gradually whittling away Chade's power provided an easy way to explain how Fitz could manage Chade. The Chade we knew would have continued to work the plan and remained instrumental. The "whittling away power" served to neutralize a character in the series. Chade was removed as a significant figure in order to make the happily ever after ending possible.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - mmmmmmm - Mar-15-2013
Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure Robin has stated previously fool's fate wasn't intended to be the end of Fitz's story and as such the ending was perhaps intended to gloss over things she had no intention of writing about in great detail but had to be resolved before the next book could begin (i.e. Chade's future role, the fighting between the piebalds & the old blood, even Fitz's seeming indifference to the fool's absence).
To me, the biggest mystery about the Fool is what on earth does he see in the bad tempered, stubborn, emotionally repressed, homophobic bastard* (aside from his pretty face)
*I do like Fitz really
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - Valarya - Mar-15-2013
(Mar-15-2013, 08:45 PM (UTC))mmmmmmm Wrote: To me, the biggest mystery about the Fool is what on earth does he see in the bad tempered, stubborn, emotionally repressed, homophobic bastard* (aside from his pretty face)
*I do like Fitz really
This made me smile!
However, one could assume the thing he saw in Fitz was the fated feelings of a White Prophet to his Catalyst. 
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - mmmmmmm - Mar-15-2013
(Mar-15-2013, 08:51 PM (UTC))Valarya Wrote:(Mar-15-2013, 08:45 PM (UTC))mmmmmmm Wrote: To me, the biggest mystery about the Fool is what on earth does he see in the bad tempered, stubborn, emotionally repressed, homophobic bastard* (aside from his pretty face)
*I do like Fitz really
This made me smile!
It would explain why the fool was willing to leave Fitz to get on with his life
I didn't think the one with the rabbit was that fond of his catalyst though so might not just be fate. And the fool (and all of his kind) are fond of fighting fate
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - Valarya - Mar-15-2013
(Mar-15-2013, 09:54 PM (UTC))mmmmmmm Wrote: I didn't think the one with the rabbit was that fond of his catalyst though so might not just be fate. And the fool (and all of his kind) are fond of fighting fate
I would say you got me there, and for a brief moment felt like this:
(D'oh!)... but the Prophets follow their fate to a Catalyst and THEN start changing the future's outcome. Semantics!!! Haha
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - o0Ampy0o - Mar-16-2013
(Mar-13-2013, 10:17 PM (UTC))Farseer Wrote: By the time this event happened in Fool's Fate (Fitz being caught between the Skill-pillars), Tintaglia and Icefyre had already met and mated and Tintaglia had managed to force Icefyre to place his head on the hearthstone of the Mothershouse. The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged (Fool spoke of them to Fitz right at the beginning of TM while both were reunited at the hut). So. By the time Fitz came into contact with this presence, Tintaglia was in company with other dragons....
I was thinking about this today. I have not read the Rain Wilds series, however, I have a question that is unlikely to present a spoiler for anyone. Roughly how much time elapsed in that world between the end of Liveships and the beginning of Tawny Man? You say that dragons had hatched "long ago" by the time the Fool visited Fitz at his hut, (cabin? ....was it the cabin where Fitz lived with Hap and Nighteyes or a hut? I don't recall a hut.)
(Mar-15-2013, 08:45 PM (UTC))mmmmmmm Wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure Robin has stated previously fool's fate wasn't intended to be the end of Fitz's story and as such the ending was perhaps intended to gloss over things she had no intention of writing about in great detail but had to be resolved before the next book could begin (i.e. Chade's future role, the fighting between the piebalds & the old blood, even Fitz's seeming indifference to the fool's absence)....
I have read quotes of her stating she felt had finished the Fitz story with the end of Tawny Man. If she wrote that ending in preparation for future books, she essentially ruined what she had invested years of creative work building. In one chapter she dismantled quite a number of key elements.
As she left it, I cannot imagine the story continuing without significant focus on the children including Dutiful, Nettle and all of the kids Burrich and Molly produced as they had become the responsibility of Fitz. He certainly would not have the freedom he once had to take off on various adventures. Chade was already old. He might not live long enough to be included in any future books.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - Valarya - Mar-16-2013
(Mar-16-2013, 02:33 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: I was thinking about this today. I have not read the Rain Wilds series, however, I have a question that is unlikely to present a spoiler for anyone. Roughly how much time elapsed in that world between the end of Liveships and the beginning of Tawny Man? You say that dragons had hatched "long ago" by the time the Fool visited Fitz at his hut, (cabin? ....was it the cabin where Fitz lived with Hap and Nighteyes or a hut? I don't recall a hut.)
It's a cabin. Cabin/hut... same thing by today's standards really, hah!
Either way, there's a bit of contention about the dates between Liveships and Tawny Man and there is a thread around here somewhere with a rather large discussion in it. Farseer would be able to find it (though I think it has some RWC spoilers).
We know there were roughly 15 years between Farseer and Tawny Man, and that Liveships happened closer to Tawny Man than Farseer. There are a few reasons why we know that to be the case, but it would be a bit of a spoiler for the first book in the RWC because the first book in that series starts where Liveships left off then fast forwards a certain number of years after the first chapter or two (to events after Tawny Man).
I hope that wasn't too confusing and helped a bit, at least.
(Mar-16-2013, 02:33 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: I have read quotes of her stating she felt had finished the Fitz story with the end of Tawny Man.
Actually, she has stated many times that when she finished Farseer, she thought that was the end of Fitz's story. Then she got the idea for Liveships and wrote it.. and a bit later the story for Tawny Man came to her. She is very adamant about NOT continuing a story or series just for the sake of pumping out more books, but will only write more if it comes to her. She has probably just spent so much time in this world it's inevitable she'd think about the future.
(Mar-16-2013, 02:33 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: As she left it, I cannot imagine the story continuing without significant focus on the children including Dutiful, Nettle and all of the kids Burrich and Molly produced as they had become the responsibility of Fitz. He certainly would not have the freedom he once had to take off on various adventures. Chade was already old. He might not live long enough to be included in any future books.
She has also stated recently that it is another Fitz/Fool story. Based on that simple information alone, I don't think the story would focus on the kids at all. I wish I had the talent that Farseer has of finding and linking threads, because there's one around here with that discussion, too. I can't say too much without spoiling some RWC, either.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - o0Ampy0o - Mar-16-2013
(Mar-16-2013, 04:02 AM (UTC))Valarya Wrote:(Mar-16-2013, 02:33 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: I have read quotes of her stating she felt had finished the Fitz story with the end of Tawny Man.
Actually, she has stated many times that when she finished Farseer, she thought that was the end of Fitz's story. Then she got the idea for Liveships and wrote it.. and a bit later the story for Tawny Man came to her. She is very adamant about NOT continuing a story or series just for the sake of pumping out more books, but will only write more if it comes to her. She has probably just spent so much time in this world it's inevitable she'd think about the future.
The point I was making was that when Hobb completed Tawny Man she was done with the series in her mind as opposed to already having plans for a future series. She did not intentionally design the ending of Tawny Man in preparation for future books.
(Mar-16-2013, 04:02 AM (UTC))Valarya Wrote:(Mar-16-2013, 02:33 AM (UTC))o0Ampy0o Wrote: As she left it, I cannot imagine the story continuing without significant focus on the children including Dutiful, Nettle and all of the kids Burrich and Molly produced as they had become the responsibility of Fitz. He certainly would not have the freedom he once had to take off on various adventures. Chade was already old. He might not live long enough to be included in any future books.
She has also stated recently that it is another Fitz/Fool story. Based on that simple information alone, I don't think the story would focus on the kids at all. I wish I had the talent that Farseer has of finding and linking threads, because there's one around here with that discussion, too. I can't say too much without spoiling some RWC, either.
I would consider Tawny Man an example of focusing heavily on the children. Most of the story was built around Dutiful's Wit and arranged marriage, with Nettle's Skill playing a significant role in controlling Tintaglia. Burrich reunited with Fitz because he was seeking out his Witted son to bring him home safely. Burrich's Witted son slayed the Skill dragon with his arrow. Burrich died defending his son against the Skill dragon. Burrich dying opened a door for Fitz to get back together with Molly. Avoiding all of the children in future books would be a conundrum. Dutiful will be of age to be king.
RE: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) - 'thul - Mar-16-2013
it wouldn't be avoiding the children, for they wouldn't be children.
Nor for that matter, could [insert most RWC characters names'] be considered the same.