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+--- Thread: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) (/thread-22.html)
RE: Amber/ The Fool - messi - Mar-30-2009
I certainly see your point- everything was left ambiguous enough and the Fool was never 'clearly' stated as a woman. However I'm still left wondering what all the innuendo was for, Fitz learning about being more than just 'plumbing' could have easily been done without the leading up to the other conclusion. Infact I think it would've been more profound because there wouldn't have been the possibility. I do particularly like the way that the Fool compared thier relationship to that of Fitz and Nighteyes. I just still feel like the road took a turn for the worst at the end. Perhaps that's because I never liked the Molly character and did not see that as a relationship that was ever anymore than his boyhood fantasies and one that they had both moved past. They had no depth, he never even shared who he was with her. At one point I was even hoping that Molly and Riddle would get together- how bad is that! I suppose by your account I should except that was the reward that he always (thought) he wanted and he deserved to have it in the end.
thanks for the response
RE: Amber/ The Fool - maulkin - Mar-30-2009
To me, the Fool "feels" like neither a woman nor a man. The Fool feels like a child, all be it a wise child, especially in the later books. The love that the Fool feels for Fitz never gives the impression of sexual desire. It seems more like childish affection or infatuation. All in all, the Fool treats Fitz like a beloved (if somewhat dim) elder sibling. Added to this, Nighteyes refers to the Fool as "The Scentless One". This is presumably due to the Fool's alien nature but also implies a lack of hormonal activity.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - Cecilyk - Mar-30-2009
Hmm, I disagree just a little. I really feel like the Fool had very grown up feelings and desires. When he dresses Fitz up to his liking or sees him with Jinna's charm on? Those are just a couple of instances that make me think that, had Fitz been ok with it, the Fool would have wanted there to be a physical relationship. Now, what that would entail is beyond me, as we have no idea how the Fool physically works.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - messi - Mar-30-2009
I agree, the Fool had very childlike qualities when he was in that particular character and that's how Fitz liked to interact with him. But he was not childlike at all when he was Lord Golden, self-indulgent and pompous perhaps, nor when he was Amber. I think he all but stated on more one occassion that he wanted more of a relationship, more intimate a relationship, than Fitz could handle and for that reason he did not pursue or request it. Now, as mentioned, what that would mean exactly is unclear because again- it was repeatedly implied that the other White Prophets were actually male or female. The Pale Woman even offered to give Fitz children and live as his wife, soooo....
RE: Amber/ The Fool - maulkin - Apr-01-2009
Interesting how the same behaviour can imply different things to different people. To me, the Fool dressing Fitz up seemed very childlike; like a little girl playing with a doll. Both Lord Golden and Amber also displayed an air of childish innocence, though expressed in very different ways. Her childlike nature was one of the things that allowed Amber to relate to Paragon so well.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - redchild - Apr-02-2009
(Apr-01-2009, 03:14 PM (UTC))maulkin Wrote: Interesting how the same behaviour can imply different things to different people. To me, the Fool dressing Fitz up seemed very childlike; like a little girl playing with a doll.
Or like a lover trying to spruce up the slovenly appearance of his significant other
Fitz was never very interested in dressing up, although he does appreciate beauty very much. So I guess you could say Fitz was like his doll, but you could also see Fitz like a rough gem or precious stone that the Fool wanted to polish up and reveal its beauty. And since Fitz isn't very comfortable with the idea of having an intimate relationship with the Fool, admiring Fitz from a distance is about the closest the Fool dares to be without toeing the line.I think the Fool is seen as childlike probably because he left his stuffy childhood tutors who kept reminding him of his importance and finally had some room to breathe and grow on his own. He's not frivolous like a child, though. He's definitely very idealistic and very hypersensitive to everything and everyone around him.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - messi - Apr-03-2009
I agree, Fitz always seemed like the kind of person that had very good looks but did nothing to accentuate or acknowledge that part of himself. Kettricken made a comment about it to him and he was so surprised. The Fool dressing him up, to me, was like a spouse or partner picking out the clothes that they always wanted to see their lover wearing because they knew how much more attractive they'd be, maximizing potential.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - fools fated - Apr-10-2009
From reading the 9 books, im under the impression that the fool is a male. though we'll never know, and im sure thats how the author will keep it. It was ages ago i last read them, but i seem to recall that the fool, when at school as a child, was given much less respect and reverence than the white woman.
This could be due to 2 factors, the first as mentioned, that the scholars believed they already had a White. and the second, in a world where women are held in higher reguard then men, the scholars would have disreguarded the fool. (i.e. Kettricken readily took place of the kingdom without unrest from the people after decades of male rulership, Ronica Vestrit being a lead bingtow figure, the women from the rainwild rooster family are the richest in their land, plus the rainwild showing emphasis for female recruits).
But arguments exist for either gender, its nice that after reading all the books, we can still ponder so much about the story without feeling the story was unfinished.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - maulkin - Apr-10-2009
I agree. One of the most thought-provoking things about the Fool is that, to Him/Her gender appears to be irrelevant. The Fool changes gender as easily as he/she changes name and social status. Perhaps the message here is that we tend to attach too much importance to gender. Fitz certainly emerges looking pretty ignorant when he makes a big deal of the issue!
RE: Amber/ The Fool - redchild - Apr-12-2009
(Apr-10-2009, 11:37 AM (UTC))fools fated Wrote: and the second, in a world where women are held in higher reguard then men, the scholars would have disreguarded the fool. (i.e. Kettricken readily took place of the kingdom without unrest from the people after decades of male rulership, Ronica Vestrit being a lead bingtow figure, the women from the rainwild rooster family are the richest in their land, plus the rainwild showing emphasis for female recruits).
Not sure if the land the Fool was born and grew up in was matriarchal though. I don't recall a name either, only that it was to the south and east of the Six Duchies. I'll have to look it up. I suspect it was egalitarian, seeing as the scholars are so reverent of anyone who is born a White, it probably wouldn't make a difference to them if it was a male or female- only their legitimacy as a White Prophet matters.
The Mountain Kingdom and the Rain Wilds are both very egalitarian societies, and while Bingtown was once egalitarian, Chalcedean influence is changing both Bingtown and Jamaillia into becoming patriarchal. Ronica is probably of the last generation in Bingtown who grew up without that influence, and I don't think the Fool chose to be a woman in Bingtown by accident, either. It was probably easier for him to stay under the radar and gather intelligence as a woman than a man. It may also be a reason why he chose to remain androgynous during his time at Buckkeep as Shrewd's Fool, seeing as it wouldn't give him any advantage as a male or female, but remaining an enigma might have offered him more protection in court.
Speaking of Bingtown, wasn't the Fool living in Bingtown before he came to Buckkeep?