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+--- Thread: The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST) (/thread-22.html)
RE: Amber/ The Fool - TW Andrews - Dec-22-2009
Doesn't the Pale Woman refer to Beloved as "he" when speaking with Fitz? She knows the society in which he's born, and knew him as a child, and it seems like if she had the additional ammunition of telling Fitz that Beloved was actually a woman, she'd use it, just for the sake of being cruel.
Also, it seems like it would be considerably easier to maintain the facade of through the circumstances of the Liveship books (Amber mostly keeps to herself, and even aboard Paragon is able to wrangle a small measure of privacy) that it would in the circumstances in the Farseer trilogy, or particular in the Golden Man trilogy (esp. given that Lord Golden's appitites--sexual and otherwise--become the best of Buckkeep gossip).
From my reading Beloved is almost certainly a male, though the roles he inhabits are both male and female.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - fleetzz - Mar-02-2010
I believe that the Fool is male.
***********spoilers***************
I attribute the Fool's modesty as a preference for privacy, as opposed to him trying to conceal his gender--which was not very important to him anyway.
Fitz did see him unclothed, as he was found only with a sackcloth (adhered to his naked back) in the refuse chamber of the Pale Woman's dungeons.
Fitz carried him to where the stone dragons were sleeping, and as the Fool's body defrosted, Fitz cleaned him, removed the sackcloth, washed his body with leaves and clean grass, then built a pyre, and layed out his body on the pyre, straightening his arms and legs as much as he was able (still some rigor mortis in the Fool's body).
There would be NO WAY he could lay him on the pyre naked and not be able to tell the Fool's gender.
It was only after Fitz exchanged bodies to heal the Fool did Fitz realize how different the Fool was to humans, as much as humans were different from wolves.
Fitz never re-clothed the Fool. The Fool fell asleep on his mattress (the former pyre with Fitz's cloak spread on it), then Fitz set up the Elderling tent, placing the Elderling robe inside, then when the insects started to attack the Fool's body, carried the Fool inside the Elderling tent. Later, the Fool came back from the stream wet, wearing the Elderling robe.
The Fool is male. He was a consummate actor, he had several different facets of himself that he showed to different people, he never limited himself by gender and therefore was able to reveal all facets of himself both feminine and masculine, although there was little enough of the masculine. I believe that he was bisexual but unwilling to enter a physical relationship with someone unless he was in love with them and who was also willing (as per his argument with Fitz in Golden Fool). The Fool hints at a prior sexual relationship, but doesn't confirm it. He only states that Fitz thinks that the Fool has never known "intimacy of that sort" but then states "you think I was saving myself for you. Don't flatter yourself Fitz, I doubt you would have been worth the wait." This does not reveal that the Fool has definitely been intimate with another. It was an insult, that was all.
Either he loved someone in the past, prior to his arrival to Buckkeep, or the Fool had never been intimate with another.
The Pale Woman believed he was male, and she knew him as a child.
The Pale Woman's face looked like Beloved, softened into femininity.
Why if Fitz loved Molly (which was ridiculous and and adolescent obsession), why couldn't he have both the Fool and Molly? Would Molly be so shallow to resent the Fool? Why? Fitz didn't want a physical relationship to the Fool, it was disgusting to him. Why couldn't he have a close relationship with both? Molly for the physical relationship and the Fool for the emotional and intellectual relationship?
RE: Amber/ The Fool - Farseer - May-20-2010
While I am more than happy to wait and find out whatever our Tangle leader chooses to reveal on this matter (she knows and understands her characters far better than the rest of us ever could!), I do agree that it is still fun to speculate...
...and, no, this isn't where I'm going to now tell you what point of view I am leaning toward
! I merely wanted to contribute what I believe to be just one of the most significant passages indirectly relating to this topic, and it is contained within Chapter 23 of 'Golden Fool'. To set the scene, it is after Fool exposed his back to show Fitz the markings on his back. Both he and Fitz are talking about 'convergence' and their roles as White Prophet and Catalyst.
Fitz writes - " I tried to speak calmly. 'That is the part I have never understood.'
He looked at me sadly. 'You understand. You simply refuse to accept it.' "
Whatever the gender of Beloved, or the relationship between he/she and Fitz, I believe we can be sure that it has actually all been out in the open for some time, and Fitz KNOWS. As with many things though, he just refuses to accept it (whatever IT is!) and, as we have only been able to glimpse the world through Fitz's own commentary, we are as in the dark as much as he ensures HE himself is, and wishes to remain
!
RE: Amber/ The Fool - Nuytsia - May-20-2010
Heehee I don't think I ever got around to posting in this thread.....
SPOILERS Tawny Man Trilogy I guess......
At first I just presumed the Fool was male, and sort of wondered why all the speculation. However, I guess there's no getting away from the fact that a few things do feel like the author giving us a definite steer in the direction of 'this could be a female'. The scene Farseer mentions above being about the main one that I can think of. I mean it's classic book (and TV/film) scenario isn't it, when the girl dressed as a guy keeps her chest covered? So I am now leaning toward the theory that he may change gender when he changes colour....
I am a little disappointed to think this may be the case though - all the supposed playing around with gender kind of becomes nothing if he actually IS changing gender..... does that make sense? I mean now instead of saying gender doesn't matter, it's saying ok it DOES matter! Maybe that IS what Hobb wants to say? There's a twist on all those interpretations out there!
(Mar-30-2009, 10:06 PM (UTC))maulkin Wrote: To me, the Fool "feels" like neither a woman nor a man. The Fool feels like a child, all be it a wise child, especially in the later books. The love that the Fool feels for Fitz never gives the impression of sexual desire. It seems more like childish affection or infatuation. All in all, the Fool treats Fitz like a beloved (if somewhat dim) elder sibling. Added to this, Nighteyes refers to the Fool as "The Scentless One". This is presumably due to the Fool's alien nature but also implies a lack of hormonal activity.
This is interesting because I never really thought of him that way, but it does fit a lot of his character. Considering his lifespan he probably IS a child! At least a teenager. Actually in the Tawny Man trilogy he seemed a lot like a teenager to me. Especially in his reactions to Fitz (if we can believe Fitz's POV!). eg that part when he goes to their coterie session and poor old Fitz is on the floor and the Fool says something like 'I wasn't scared' - I can almost see him crossing his arms and pouting, practically poking his tongue out at Fitz.
I often wondered about that lack of scent thing - I thought maybe he was just the only one in the six duchies who bathed on a regular basis
(May-18-2009, 03:15 PM (UTC))maulkin Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember, all of the white prophets mentioned in the books worked with catalysts of the opposite sex. Perhaps a white prophet is able to become whichever sex is most attractive to the catalyst of the age, in order to establish a more effective bond.
That's something I often wondered about too! You'd think the prophet and catalyst getting 'involved' would be a REALLY BAD idea considering all they go through and what sacrifices have to be made. I would have thought you'd try and be the gender that would be least attractive to the catalyst (if you had a choice). I mean how hard must it have been for the Fool to allow all those things to happen to Fitz considering how he feels about him.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - Farseer - May-20-2010
(Jun-03-2009, 02:35 PM (UTC))Garetha Wrote: [But who will the next catalyst be, now that Fitz has retired?
I'm not sure he can retire as a Catalyst. ...Perhaps Fitz remains as such so that he can play an important role in future books, or maybe I'm just wishing.
[/quote]
There seems to me to be spoilers all over BUT just in case...*spoilers for Farseer/Tawny Man*
![[+]](/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
WARNING! CONTAINS HIGH LEVELS OF ELFBARKRE: Amber/ The Fool - Lord Punctual - May-20-2010
As has been briefly mentioned before, I think we need to remember that Farseer and the Tawny Man are written from first person perspective. As in any work from this viewpoint, we must decide if our narrator is reliable or not... and I think dear FitzChivalry is a resounding not.
I mean, what with all the self-induced amnesia, the voluntary forging, and the admitted denial of facts, I don`t really think we can take anything Fitz writes down as being entirely factual.
I mean, what would it have meant if the Fool turned out to be female (spoiler for Fool's Fate)
In Golden Fool, Lord Golden, in response to Fitz's famous "I don't like men" speech, said something along the lines of "Well I knew that, but I would have been a lot happier never actually having to hear you say it." That sort of implies that although Beloved never expected to have a physical relationship with Fitz, he would have like to if it were an option.
So, how would you feel if someone that you really cared about as a friend, but had turned down for a physical relationship on the basis that they were the same gender as you and you don't swing that way, turned out to in fact be the opposite gender? And you only found out after their death? And you really hurt their feelings at one point and damaged your friendship by earlier turning them down?
I think I'd feel pretty awful. And given Fitz's predilection for forgetting about things that make him feel bad (like his mom, for one thing) I think it's possible that he chose not to remember . (Sure Beloved didn't end up dying, but Fitz didn't know it would work out that way at the time.)
I'd also like to point out that, male or female, gender doesn't seem to be very important to the Fool. I think it would have been deeply disappointing to him/her to find out that the matter of plumbing was so important to Fitz. I'd almost go so far as to think that perhaps she didn't want Fitz to know that she was female after the arguement in Golden Fool because then she might have had to confront Fitz' changing opinion of her and possible openness to a relationship - because the change in Fitz' attraction to her would mean that Fitz' was only attracted to those facets of her overall personality that were indeed female, and not those that were not. I think that would have been hard for Beloved to stomach.
And... what else was I going to say? Oh yes. About Amber coaxing Althea on pretending to be a boy: certainly, female impersonators have a great understanding of what makes a person feminine, but does that mean that they have a great understanding of what makes a person appear masculine? My example being that although I am an excellent accent and voice impersonator (I'm great at parties) I wouldn't know how to begin coaching someone to mimic my native accent, because it's my "base value." But then, I'm not a gender impersonator, so it might be different for them.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - Nuytsia - May-21-2010
Farseer, yeah that's true re he's still catalyst. Also, that damn Prillkrop I had a bad feeling about him as soon as he turned up. Hehehe.
Lord P I agree you could certainly make a case for the Fool being female the whole time (or male. or changing hehehe) but I like your full explanation of just how 'in denial' Fitz could be! I must admit I had ruled out 'always female' for the reason that Fitz would surely have mentioned it ..... but you make a good case. The only sticking point that springs to mind is that conversation they have afterward in Prillkrops house when they are STILL going on about whether he's interested 'in that way' etc and I think the Fool makes some reference to the Fitz/Nighteyes relationship etc. Or are you saying they're both SO in denial this is 'keeping up appearances' that the Fool's a guy (when now they both know he's not). OMG that is even possible I guess. Nooooooooooooo! (heheh I still don't like it!) (but the nuttiness of that scene if that IS The case makes me hate it less)
I think the being Amber/ saying stuff to Althea about dressing as a boy could work no matter what gender he is.
RE: Amber/ The Fool - FoolMoon - May-31-2010
Well, this is an argument i had with my friends for a few years now, and in my opinion i always saw the Fool as male.
what determined my idea was Fool's Fate, when Fitz healed the Fool through his body and did not change his idea about his gender. Also, the Pale Woman DID see the Fool naked as she stripped him of his skin (the skinning of the tattoos in Fool's Fate) and she also referred to him as a male.
Although the Fool might have had some "feminine" behaviors, he is still less feminine than most of Hobb's female characters.
Regarding he's relationship with Fitz over the books and years, it could easily be a sexual behavior as well as it could be a strong bond between the two. the fact that the Fool really did loved Fitz and physical rather than just friendly does not indicate he is a female. Robin Hobb as implied homosexual agendas in her characters in some of her books. for example, Kennit's thoughts about Wintrow and in Dragon Keeper (which i am still reading), Hest and Sedric. so the Fool being both male and in love with Fitz is not impossible and is actually likely.
Still, other than pleasing some parts of my mind, it hardly matters. the Fool is the Fool, and is my favorite character in literature. and if truth to be told, is also a very major obsession of mine
RE: Amber/ The Fool - Nuytsia - May-31-2010
(May-31-2010, 01:12 AM (UTC))FoolMoon Wrote: Also, the Pale Woman DID see the Fool naked as she stripped him of his skin (the skinning of the tattoos in Fool's Fate) and she also referred to him as a male.Yes, I agree this is the other major point I can't get around in any argument against the Fool being a male (at that time, and when the PW previously knew him, at least). Even say she did know he was a female and was lying to Fitz, well, why?? I think she would have definitely tormented him with the knowledge the Fool was female if he was.
(May-31-2010, 01:12 AM (UTC))FoolMoon Wrote: Still, other than pleasing some parts of my mind, it hardly matters. the Fool is the Fool, and is my favorite character in literature. and if truth to be told, is also a very major obsession of mine
I'll give that a big thumbs up!
RE: Amber/ The Fool - Farseer - May-31-2010
(May-31-2010, 03:22 PM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote:(May-31-2010, 01:12 AM (UTC))FoolMoon Wrote: Also, the Pale Woman DID see the Fool naked as she stripped him of his skin (the skinning of the tattoos in Fool's Fate) and she also referred to him as a male.Yes, I agree this is the other major point I can't get around in any argument against the Fool being a male (at that time, and when the PW previously knew him, at least). Even say she did know he was a female and was lying to Fitz, well, why?? I think she would have definitely tormented him with the knowledge the Fool was female if he was.
I think we need a spoiler warning thingy within the title for this thread (someone could wander in here after only having read of the Fool in the Farseer books or after having only read of Amber in the LST), despite the title itself being a spolier
.If you don't already, consider a minute that Beloved is female, and always has been...
I think that it would be in the PW's best interest to avoid tormenting Beloved's femininity, at least in front of Fitz. By avoiding this, she prevents Fitz from having to fully acknowledge Beloved in this way. She doesn't want this to happen...she wants Fitz to be her Catalyst and so offers him the very thing she knows he needs...femininity in Beloved's form but a femininity never openly acknowledged between the two (I think some of the reasons for which, Lord Punctual covered well earlier).
Hmm..it's a little like what happened between Elliana and her cousin. Both were female (as for PW and Beloved) and both were vying for the title of 'Narcheska' (as PW and Beloved are vying for the title of White Prophet). As well as the title which was not rightfully hers anyway, the cousin (whose names escapes me, sorry!) wanted Dutiful for herself and tried to use her femininity to draw him away from Elliana (just as PW wanted Fitz and used her femininity to draw his thoughts away from Beloved). Elliana, though female (like Beloved), wasn't using her femininity to lure Dutiful. Not using your femininity does not make you any less female...
What if, at this point, the cousin turned around and began pointing out Elliana's femininity or feminine features to Dutiful? Of course, it would have meant Dutiful had then turned his attentions toward Elliana and started thinking of her on a very feminine level (checking out her curves, the fall of her hair etc). It would have had the opposite effect to what the cousin desired.
The same can be said of the PW. She knew Beloved to be female but deliberately kept the masculine deception going as that suited her purposes very nicely...to do otherwise and expose Beloved's femininity, would have meant turning Fitz's attentions to Beloved. It would have had an opposite effect. Instead, she chose to use her one weapon of femininity and did so knowing Beloved couldn't call out or otherwise direct attention away from her (due to being gagged and hung on the wall!)...this, of course, the PW did through her own charms as well as with a Skill suggestion.
In the case of Elliana and her cousin, there had never been any such gender deception between Elliana and Dutiful and so, rather than allow her cousin to take what was hers, Elliana turned the powers of femininity back on her cousin...she kissed Dutiful in a way that most definitely turned his attentions back to her
! Beloved, knowing and loving Fitz as she does, and having an entirely different approach to 'love' than most, chooses not to make gender an issue and so does not go that next step, as Elliana did, and stake her claim by flaunting her femininity...especially as it would also crack her and Fitz's self-deception wide open.Already knowing that Fitz and Beloved have long deceived each other with regard to this, and why, it then suited the PW to flaunt her own femininity whilst Beloved had so obviously kept her own femininity quiet throughout her role in the two-way self-deception.
Knowing that the PW worked so hard to turn Thick and Fitz against each other as they made their way across the snow, is she any less likely to wish for the Fool and Fitz to be at odds? Even more so due to their White Prophet/Catalyst relationship, not to mention their destruction of her own plans for the Six Duchies and the world. Yes, she knows 'Beloved', and has done since childhood, and she would also know of the relationship shared with Fitz. She knows Beloved is female but it suits for the deception to remain intact.
This theory could also work for those who believe that Beloved is able to be, or just is, both male and female...
As for the Fool/Fitz's self-deception, I have something to add to my earlier post but will wait when I have a bit more time!!!