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Fantasy, the occult, and you - Albertosaurus Rex - Nov-25-2010
Yes, I'm going to whine about the people's perception of fantasy again. we've already had the literary snobs, now it's time for another, possibly even more infuriating group of people: a certain brand of christians.
Now to be honest with you, I still go to church every sunday, even though I'm not quite sure what to believe anymore. So I'm not trying to bash Christianity here. However, there's a certain category of christians who tend to see the fantasy genre as something inflluenced by Satan, a stepping stone to "witchcraft". The kind of people who want to ban Harry Potter books. I even personally know some of them and they can't. Be. Argued. With. Because the Bible says we shouldn't get involved with any kind of magic. Not te mention that the bible treats men and women unequally, condones slavery, says it's immoral for men to grow long hair, but those are things these people gloss over.
I love stories with magic in them, but I don't believe in magic myself. It's not real. These people, however, do believe in magic and demonic influences behind it. and yet, when you ask them "doesn't that make you very fearful?" they will always deny it. But if you go so far as to seek demonic influences behind even My Little Pony (I'm not kidding here!) why wouldn't you be?
I don't get these people, I really don't. Does any of you have any clue?
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - 'thul - Nov-25-2010
'thul enjoy laughing at such narrow minds. As for their view of magic; 'thul have no proof magic exists, but neither do they have proof it does.
In some ways, christian fundamentalists are worse than islamic fundamentalists...
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - Farseer - Nov-28-2010
I think I have much to add on this topic (good one, AR) but it will require a far greater commitment of time than that which I can allocate to thePlenty today!
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - Farseer - Nov-29-2010
(Nov-25-2010, 09:28 AM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: So I'm not trying to bash Christianity here. However, there's a certain category of christians who tend to see the fantasy genre as something inflluenced by Satan, a stepping stone to "witchcraft". The kind of people who want to ban Harry Potter books.
Given the guidelines for thePlenty, I am fearful of overstepping the mark here so, Mervi, please jump in/delete if you feel the need.
First up, members of this "certain category of Christians" would argue that it is only they who actually form “Christianity” while members of all other categories of widely-accepted Christianity actually make up "Christendom" or "Babylon the Great". This may not seem important to the issue at hand but one cannot begin to understand the stance on books/magic etc without first having an understanding of the organisation or its fundamental beliefs and doctrines. While I will cover a little here, as is related to the topic, a web search would provide further insight.
This "one true religion" that sees itself as solely making up Christianity keeps itself separate from the world, and its members believe that all others outside of their organisation are "of the world". Magic and the occult, as is found within the pages of Harry Potter books, is simply one aspect of this separateness.
As a way of maintaining this separate state, members are strongly discouraged from reading, or even watching, pretty much anything that is not published within/by the organisation. Even rather than read storybooks or watch movies produced by those "of the world", children are encouraged to only read, watch and act out for themselves various bible-based productions, though never anything biblical that has been produced by those others within "Christendom" or that form a part of “Babylon the Great”. To do such a forbidden thing could warrant discipline of varying degrees and, ultimately, end in being thrown out of the organisation and shunned if one continued to do the wrong thing.
Still, there are many individual and group discrepancies between issues and doctrines etc. A simple example of this could be one person’s desire not to be involved with birthday, Easter and Christmas celebrations due to their pagan roots however it is deemed fine by the same person to sit and watch the Olympic Games despite the torch relay having roots in the worship of Zeus, Hitler’s involvement with the relay itself and not to mention the competitiveness, patriotism and nationalism (all elements normally frowned upon by members) displayed throughout the entire event. Another example could be that a child in a family is not allowed to read a book version of the Disney movie ‘Hercules’ due to the plot which includes continuous references to Zeus and other gods of Olympus etc but it is perfectly okay for a teenager in that same family to watch a movie like ‘Gladiator’.
(Nov-25-2010, 09:28 AM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: I even personally know some of them and they can't. Be. Argued. With. Because the Bible says we shouldn't get involved with any kind of magic.
As mentioned above, with any group there are a range of viewpoints that extend all the way up to extreme, and this range often depends on the length of time or level of involvement within the group and the exposure to either limited or complete knowledge of the group’s practices (the longer you’ve been in and the higher you go, often it means the more you are told/exposed to). Usually, the current, public response to being asked about the Harry Potter etc books would be something along the lines of - It is up a person’s own conscience to decide whether or not they feel bothered by reading or viewing any type of material. They have to measure their Bible-trained conscience to determine if they should associate themselves with it. They must respect their fellow believers by not pushing "likes" or "dislikes" on to one another due to the risk of stumbling one another. In this, anyone can choose to read Harry Potter if their conscience is not troubled by it.
Of course, this response depends very much on which member you talk to about it, and can vary depending on their personal viewpoint and interpretation of "the rules". Still, while this is now the fairly standard and rehearsed response to be given to those “in the world” and/or to new or easily-stumbled members, it has not always been this way over the course of the organization’s history. It is also often vastly different when one is within the organization, particularly after baptism, when a member is then considered “secure”. While it is said to be left up to “one’s conscience”, advice offered via publications and meeting sends very pointed, clear messages that if you are participating in a certain activity, such as reading or viewing any magic/occult-related material, then you are going against your organization and your god. Basically, “You can do what you want to do but what you want to do had better be what we want you to do or it’s wrong and you could be severely punished.” There is no room for personal contribution or critical thinking on this or any other matter.
(Nov-25-2010, 09:28 AM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: I love stories with magic in them, but I don't believe in magic myself. It's not real. These people, however, do believe in magic and demonic influences behind it. and yet, when you ask them "doesn't that make you very fearful?" they will always deny it.
All people are different but, through my own personal experience with a "certain category of Christians", I would imagine that most would deny it because they would not have truly analyzed it and their situation at all, let alone enough. This is because questioning one's beliefs and thoughts is not condoned and thus many would simply follow as the "sheep" they are supposed/instructed to be, and not show any "goat-like" traits which could display a rebellious attitude. Thinking for oneself is simply not allowed or tolerated.
If such people are not very fearful of demons, why do they refrain from touching or immediately destroy literature from another religion as it could transfer demons to them? Why are they instructed not to enter any of “Christendom’s” churches or other such places of worship, even for a close family member’s wedding or funeral, so as not to become demonized? Especially speaking to a member who has left the organization can open them up as a target for demons and that is why it is of particular importance that these ‘apostates’ are avoided, even if they are a husband, wife or child. It is the same fear of demons that often drives people to avoid reading material such as Harry Potter.
These people who deny fear would not be able to accept such an acknowledgement of fear because, in doing so, they would then have to acknowledge the other factors of fear used within their organisation and this would, in turn, shake and shatter the very foundations of their faith. Fear is the driving force behind all that this "category of Christians" holds dear...not the love that is preached or often portrayed for the benefit of the wider public. There is their true fear of their god, fear of being turned-in by fellow members, fear of public and private humiliation, fear of death at Armageddon, fear of being disfellowshipped and shunned by fellow members of both family and the organization as a whole, fear of finding out that "the Truth" is founded on lies, fear of demons, fear of those "in the world", fear of psychologists, fear of depression, fear of Satan, fear of being marked and fear of the organisation's leaders (not in that order!), to name a few.
(Nov-25-2010, 09:28 AM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: But if you go so far as to seek demonic influences behind even My Little Pony (I'm not kidding here!)
Sadly, I know full well that you are not kidding here, and possibly some of what I have already stated proves this. I think many would be shocked to discover just how far it goes…
What is even sadder is that while many members are honestly attempting to abide by “the rules” and do the right thing by their god, however it is they became involved in the organisation, they would be horrified to discover that their history is rooted in evils far greater than those they are trying keep themselves separate from today. Their history and many on-going doctrines are founded in the very magic and occult they refrain from becoming involved in. Their founder was found guilty of trying to sell ‘magic’ seeds that would allow for the greater growth of a bumper crop and, quite honestly, this was the least of the things he was involved in! The fantasy of Harry Potter is bland when held in comparison to the truth and reality of what began and holds this organisation together.
(Nov-25-2010, 09:28 AM (UTC))Albertosaurus Rex Wrote: I don't get these people, I really don't. Does any of you have any clue?
I do get them, and I feel true sorrow for their position, especially for those who do not accurately know what their position is. They are being deceived. Some actually know this but refuse to speak out about their doubts or choose to stay for a variety of reasons, willingly or not, while others simply cannot see it because of the damage the organization has caused them through various facets of manipulation and control throughout their lives.
This is my view and experience only but one which I feel I am fully qualified to share because I was among these people for more than a decade…it certainly proved to be an interesting religious, social and psychological experiment but it was, and still proves to be, a very difficult situation to disentangle myself from.
I would also like to note that anything I have written here would be viewed by those remaining in the organization as words of the Devil coming from an “apostate”. This is because I committed the ultimate sin by keeping my eyes wide open and willingly chose to walk away.
Again, I apologise for the strong 'religious' overtones but, as I mentioned at the outset, it is impossible to discuss this topic without also discussing the religion that is behind it. I have never, in any manner, spoken of this to anyone outside of my immediate family before now and I certainly do not want to denigrate anyone for taking an opposing or different stance.
In having said all of that
, I am not sure if I agree with the banning of material or not. On the whole though, I don't think a decision to do so should be given over to any one organisation. I think it is only fair that all things are made available to the public and each person can be left with the choice to then read or not to read. Hmm..
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - Mervi - Nov-29-2010
Farseer, I don't see a problem with this topic or your post. Actually I consider this discussion to be very much "on topic" at these boards. The guideline about avoiding religious/political etc posts is so that I can delete/ban stuff when someone comes here just to troll/preach their own beliefs without any intention to participate in other discussions. Also, thank you for sharing your experience. I can imagine it wasn't an easy thing to write about.
I've always found it very intriguing that the two fantasy authors I consider to be the absolute best in their field ever are/were practising Catholics. I don't know or understand that brand of Christianity as well as I should or would like to, but I'm going to guess there's a certain basic belief in or acceptance of the possibility that there are things that can't always be explained rationally... and growing up with that undercurrent around strengthens one's imagination. Or that's my theory anway.
Take miracles for example - there's a difference in simply accepting them as God's work or trying to explain them away as natural phenomena with the added "and maybe that's how God works". I'd imagine the world is a much more exciting place when you believe that anything CAN happen, and maybe there really ARE dragons, unicorns and selkies out there.Re: what's been talked about previously... I'd like to say I have no problem with any religious group setting up their own rules and trying to follow them as long as they don't want to ~save~ the rest of the world by forcing everyone to live up to their standards. But that's not really true, because there's so much brainwashing and abuse going on in many religions and religious groups that it's just difficult to stand by and watch it happen. But then I guess that makes my a hypocrite for wanting to ~save~ THEM and make them live in a way I think is good...
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - Albertosaurus Rex - Nov-29-2010
Guys, I want to thank you for your well-considered posts. Religion is a topic fraught with danger and I want once again to implore everyone to keep a cool head.
Thinking this over myself, I was reminded of a topic that came up some weeks ago during one of my university courses concerning "cosmic warfare". This dealt with religious terrorism: how can people justify the bombing of innocent civilians? The argumenys goes that these people see themselves as warriors in a cosmic war. There is a dark and shadowy enemy (say, the devil) who has accomplices in this world, like other faiths, other denominations of their own faith or the government. This construction of cosmic war gives the people who believe in it the feeling that their own lives are more meaningful.
Obviously, the anti-fantasy christians do not go around assassinating fantasy novelists, but the mechanic seems vaguely similar to me. There are shadowy demonic forces at work in the world and these have accomplices in people like wiccans and fantasy novelists. The invention of this enemy allows them to engage in a (to them) meaninful battle.
Farseer Wrote:These people who deny fear would not be able to accept such an acknowledgement of fear because, in doing so, they would then have to acknowledge the other factors of fear used within their organisation and this would, in turn, shake and shatter the very foundations of their faith. Fear is the driving force behind all that this "category of Christians" holds dear...not the love that is preached or often portrayed for the benefit of the wider public.
I am so very reminded of those tracts by Jack Chick, which often end with unbelievers being thrown into the fires of Hell.
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - joost - Nov-29-2010
Religion isn't the only one that ostracises books. I saw the movie 'Together' once (brilliant movie, btw) about a communist colony in Sweden. One of the members of the colony claims that Pippi Longstockings (belated happy 65th birthday to her) was capitalist propaganda, since the girl has a chest with gold.
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - redchild - Nov-30-2010
Demons exist in the mind. If people go about searching for demons in everything around them, undoubtedly that's what they will find when they unconsciously twist the data to suit their theory.
(Nov-29-2010, 09:54 AM (UTC))Mervi Wrote: But that's not really true, because there's so much brainwashing and abuse going on in many religions and religious groups that it's just difficult to stand by and watch it happen. But then I guess that makes my a hypocrite for wanting to ~save~ THEM and make them live in a way I think is good...
I don't believe you can be a hypocrite for trying to make someone see reason. Even by revealing a different perspective to someone can induce a critical re-evaluation. However, you can be a hypocrite by doing the same thing such a person does: by forcing others to live the way you live as well as shutting out any alternate perspectives.
I think the only way to combat such abuse is exposure to new information. Merely having the information available and accessible, I think, is important. However, it also requires that one have an incentive and the initiative to seek it out and that may require some nudging. It is entirely up to the individual to accept or reject the information, but allowing people to continue existing in ignorance is perhaps as bad as being the one doing the brainwashing.
Of course there are people who will completely refuse to even acknowledge that there may be another perspective, even if presented with an idea. In that case I don't think it is anyone's obligation to force them to change, even if they believe it is with good intentions.
RE: Fantasy, the occult, and you - Nuytsia - Jan-12-2011
Goodness how interesting!
I have nothing to add, but thanks for these posts!