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+--- Thread: how do dragons fly? (Spoilers all books to end DH) (/thread-233.html)
RE: how do dragons fly? - assasin - Dec-27-2010
But they are too big to fly. There is a lot about dragons we dont know. For all we know their magic makes them lighter. It would have to help them in some way. Just not cause them to levitate.
The average dragon is as big as a ship. The biggest pterasoar [flying reptiles] were [dont know the exact size] at most as big as a truck. A small one. Which is nowhere near the size of a ship. And thats when the dragons are new out of their cases. They need some advantage caused by magic. Its the only logical explanation. Well that and sacks full of helium. But I doubt thats the case.
RE: how do dragons fly? SPOILERS ALL BOOKS - Farseer - Dec-27-2010
It could be that dragons simply violate aerodynamic theory?
As an aside: using birds in modern times as models, it is considered that it is apparently impossible for a pterosaur to have stayed aloft and yet we accept that they flew, and must therefore ascribe various theories to support this view.
Of course, I do rather like the idea that I raised earlier in that dragons may possibly combine both aerodynamic and buoyant flight, through the use of their wings and via the less dense, warm air within their bodies (like a hot air balloon). Possibly this is why the dragons required heat to not only emerge from their cases but also to provide them with enough strength to then fly eg it was not until the stunted dragons reached the hot springs, and were able to properly warm themselves, that they were then finally able to fly.
With regard to the size of the RotE dragons, while they are described as being "as large as a ship" their wings are also likened to "sails" which are, by proportion, just as large. As far as my understanding goes (which isn't far
!), a large dragon could fly just as easily with large wings as a small bird could fly with small wings, taking into account evolutionary changes and adaptations, as well as variations in wing loading and aspect ratio depending on flight capability? Size itself does not matter so long as the planform supports that size and particular wing use? A large wing area that is relative to the dragon's mass would maximise lift? Of course, as a larger animal, I would expect that a dragon would tend to glide or soar as much as possible so as to be more energetically efficient? Feel free to step in and tell me I have no idea as to what I'm talking about ! Either way, I fully agree with 'thul in that the dragons' ability to fly must mostly "be ascribed to their vast wings", just as wings are the key to bird flight.As for the actual role of magic, aside from simply being "magic", it is difficult to say. Certainly, via the possession of the Skill magic, Fitz is able to envisage flight in the form of a dragon so possibly magic does have a direct role to play for the dragons also. The simulacra were certainly all able to fly when roused and "full" of memories, no matter what their size or shape, and this definitely had to do with magic.
RE: how do dragons fly? - 'thul - Dec-27-2010
Big animal does not equal heavy... you must not forget that, assasin... Also, while dragons in RotE are fairly large, their wings are also proportionally larger. giving them hollow bones (like birds) makes their main weakness reduced. RotE dragons keep their wings folded up to almost nothing when not in use, but fold them out to be much larger than even the largest sails on the largest ships when in use... Had their ability for flight been magical in nature, it would not have been necessary for the dragon "heeby" to practice continually on flapping to gain flight... such exercise is only natural when the ability it concerns is naturally possible...
your words appear quite correct to this one, Farseer...
RE: how do dragons fly? - assasin - Dec-28-2010
Yes, fine I agree with you.But my main theory is that magic would make them weight less in order to assist in flight. Anyway where do the get the energy to move such massive wings. unless theyve driven some animals to extinction maybe magic just makesit aesier to control their mussles. please note that I am NOT advocating levitation. I know that dragons use magic for communication, assume it to gain their ansestral memeries and its a good bet for age. Why not ASSISTING in flgiht.
Quote:Had their ability for flight been magical in nature, it would not have been necessary for the dragon "heeby" to practice continually on flapping to gain flight... such exercise is only natural when the ability it concerns is naturally possible...
Of course with my theory it wwould be possible. If the wings are unable to gain flight at all, than how can they flyn even with the HELP of a LIGHTER load. Iff it was levitation i could understand your argument. But the magic would just asssist the dragons. Not be the actual cuase of flight ie no levitation. Jut either a boost to the flight musles, lighter weight, a combination of both, etc. So yes it would be naturally possible for a dragon to fly. If it was a lot smaller. In heebiy's casehis wings or flight musles were a bit deformed meaning that even with the help of maagic it wouldnt help him no matter his size. Now if he could levitate [which I am not advocating] he wouldnt need wings at all to fly. I assume that the exersises were a bit mof a waste of time snce heat would have had a lot more effect. Though they probably did help.
ps sorry if this is a bit long-winded but I just don't seem to be ggetting my point across.
RE: how do dragons fly? - redchild - Dec-28-2010
(Dec-27-2010, 03:11 PM (UTC))assasin Wrote: I'd seriously disagree with you about "as close to natural as possible". Dragons are too big to fly naturally. Full stop. I know of no animal in history that size that could fly. There is no indication of the air preasure being different to earth. The gravity is the same. You get the idea.
I think he means as close to realism as possible. And fire-breathing dragons is seen in every other fantasy book out there that contains dragons, that its almost a cliche. I liked that Hobb gave her dragons different abilities.
Quote:Also, dragons are pretty much immortal [not counting starvation, disease, injury, etc. Just age.]. I know of no animal that is immortal. But i know in the realm that skill users could age a lot slower. Through the use of MAGIC.
Not to mention the dragons ability to absorb memories. The ansestral memory. menatl communication. You get the idea.
Actually many one celled organisms (and possibly some species of jellyfish) are immortal. They never die because of old age, but live on through asexual reproduction; basically they just revert back to a young version of themselves, but now with a copy of themselves. Quite an interesting concept, really. Dragons can remember their past lives, and acquire the memories of others, in a way similar to that of the genetic memory of asexual creatures, but dragons are sexual creatures. They are like copies of the combined memories of their parents, but at the same time, of their own individual identity.
Perhaps a combination of wing-size, hollow bones, and strong pectoral muscles allow them to physically be able to fly. Dragons seem to be a lot like dinosaurs: they seem to maintain homeostasis, but at the same time crave warmth like a cold-blooded reptile. I doubt dragons can generate "heat sacs" to help them rise off the ground. The Kelsingra dragons relished the heat from the Elderling platforms that accelerated their healing and regeneration. If they could generate their own heat source beyond that generated for homeostasis, then the Kelsingra dragons should have had the strength to grow to full size on their own.
We also know that flight is not instinctive for dragons. They need to take the first leap, just like birds do.
I also remember that their blood is unlike any other creature in the RotE. Maybe some magical property in their blood, in combination with their physical wings, allows flight.
RE: how do dragons fly? - assasin - Dec-28-2010
I give up about the magic.
But flight is instinctive. They automatically know how it is done becuase of their ancestral memories. Maybe not the traditional instinct. But its not like they have to learn to do it.
RE: how do dragons fly? - redchild - Dec-28-2010
(Dec-28-2010, 06:39 AM (UTC))assasin Wrote: I give up about the magic.
What made you change your mind?
Quote:But flight is instinctive. They automatically know how it is done becuase of their ancestral memories. Maybe not the traditional instinct. But its not like they have to learn to do it.
I meant more in the motor skills department, I should have been more clear.Just as a baby calf has to learn to use its legs to walk and run, the Kelsingra dragons had to learn to fly, though having malformed bodies certainly made it much harder for them. A calf with stunted legs will still try to stand, however. Despite having vivid memories of being in flight, they must translate that flight instinct with their new bodies. They just didn't have the physical capacities to do it until they were fully grown and healthy.
RE: how do dragons fly? - assasin - Dec-28-2010
Quote:What made you change your mind?
I meant giveing up trying to0 convince you. I still feel it would be impossible for them to fly without assistance. But I also feel it would be impossible to convince you.
Quote:I meant more in the motor skills department, I should have been more clear.Just as a baby calf has to learn to use its legs to walk and run, the Kelsingra dragons had to learn to fly, though having malformed bodies certainly made it much harder for them. A calf with stunted legs will still try to stand, however. Despite having vivid memories of being in flight, they must translate that flight instinct with their new bodies. They just didn't have the physical capacities to do it until they were fully grown and healthy.
I still disagree. Sintara has stated multiple times how she would move a musle to better catch an updraft. Also with most prey animals, while they still stumble. the young do know how to walk.
RE: how do dragons fly? - joost - Dec-28-2010
Who says that the RotE has the same gravity as 'our' earth? Don't assume that, because something is impossible here, the same thing is impossible in a different environment.
RE: how do dragons fly? - redchild - Dec-29-2010
(Dec-28-2010, 09:44 AM (UTC))assasin Wrote:Quote:What made you change your mind?
I meant giveing up trying to0 convince you. I still feel it would be impossible for them to fly without assistance. But I also feel it would be impossible to convince you.
Nobody has disproven your theory.
(Dec-28-2010, 09:59 AM (UTC))joost Wrote: Who says that the RotE has the same gravity as 'our' earth? Don't assume that, because something is impossible here, the same thing is impossible in a different environment.
RotE gravity doesn't seem all that different than Earth gravity. Anyhow, anything can defy gravity, if only temporarily (if you jump in the air, aren't you defying gravity?) It seems dragons can defy it much longer with magic and big wings.
Now that I think of it, do dragons require a powerful leap or running start before gaining enough speed and lift to fly? Or can they somehow lift off by only flapping their wings and some sort of magical aid?