+- thePlenty.net Forums (https://theplenty.net/forums)
+-- Forum: Robin Hobb and Megan Lindholm (https://theplenty.net/forums/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Realm of the Elderlings (https://theplenty.net/forums/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) (/thread-259.html)
Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - Farseer - Mar-02-2011
We are introduced to a number of family crests throughout the RotE books. Some seem fairly straight-forward, some seem a little more complex. What of them...their origins, the symbolisms and meanings? Are they just 'crests' or are they something more?
I have included 'sigils' here as I'm pretty sure
that is the word Fool used to describe Fitz' crest that appears upon Chade's brow in TM. The term 'sigil' is usually used to describe a symbol with magical properties or a symbol created to serve a magical purpose. Farseer - Buck
FitzChivarly - Charging Buck
Kettricken - Vixen
Khuprus family - Crowned Rooster
Lord Golden - Golden Cock Pheasant (used as part of the role he played but no doubt it holds huge significance of some sort...it is Fool we're talking about!) I have something to add...
Kennit - Raven
Paragon/Althea/Brashen - Serpent (though this was also used only during a rouse, it was still something that they 'chose' or was possibly chosen 'for them'...by fate etc)
Narcheska Elliania's Motherhouse - Narwhal
Will get to listing the Outislander clans but have to go! Arrgh!
Any others?
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - Nuytsia - Mar-02-2011
You're going to LOVE Game of Thrones.... heheh
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - redchild - Mar-03-2011
^ Oh boy.
Old Arthurian texts seem to love listing out every single knight in every single battle.... not to mention their relations/kin (and the extended family,) who's married to whom, who killed who in battle, who had more prowess than all the rest put together combined, etc. There are pages of this stuff.
The number of Hobb's sigils in the RotE is, by comparison, is so much easier to remember...
Not that I remember all of them
I find the lack of dragon sigils to be significant (or not?)
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - 'thul - Mar-03-2011
'thul believe that the reason dragons, lions and such animals were common in European heraldry is that they were mythical beasts... Few Europeans in the middle ages saw lions, let alone dragons, and thus those beasts were polished into majestic and powerful beasts that symbolized all the nobility wanted to symbolize...
These beings think that the lack of dragon sigils in RotE is historical. You do not use something that has been feared by all men lightly...
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - Farseer - Mar-04-2011
(Mar-03-2011, 09:58 AM (UTC))redchild Wrote: I find the lack of dragon sigils to be significant (or not?)
I do also! What to make of it all...
I enjoyed your post 'thul. The history of heraldry is a topic I can, and do, lose myself in. I spent many hours here one night because I just had to find out exactly why it was that the English Cricket Team bore the triple lions on their team uniforms...once I found that out, one interesting thing lead to another, and another...like I had nothing more important to do! Like now!!
It's interesting to do searches on images used in crests and what some of the meanings attached to the images are. Some examples from only sites I briefly stumbled upon, though accuracy is not assured of course (!!):
Buck (or stag/deer etc) - One who will not fight unless provoked; peace and harmony
Cock (male bird) - Courage and perseverance; hero; able man in politics
Cat - Liberty, vigilance, forecast, and courage. I added this just for fun...though I'd be lying if I didn't admit that the word 'forecast' jumped out at me!!!
Dragon (though there is no crest for this in RotE) - Valiant defender of treasure; valour and protection
Fox (vixen) - One who will use all that he/she may possess of wisdom and wit in his/her own defense (I liked this use of the word 'wit' seeing as this crest is connected to Kettricken!
)Ivy (it was not Patience's 'crest' as such, but an image that became synonymous with her actions?) - Strong and lasting friendship
Pheasant - Person of many resources (sure sounds like Lord Golden!)
Raven - Divine providence (Wintrow thought Kennit was of Sa!)
Serpent/Sea Serpent - Wisdom
The best find of all was the one for Fool, who I associate with the rat, as that was the animal represented on his sceptre while in Buckkeep:
Rat - Unknown (yes, the Fool IS that!!
)I have spoken a little of Ratsy in the Mythical Creatures/Folk thread but, further to that, I am of the foundationless opinion that Fool's sceptre was not a simple jester's marotte, but possibly a sceptre of his divine or royal-like office, that may have even had magical properties. If I couple this idea with the fact that a jester's words were often deemed to have been divinely inspired (not to mention the small matter that Fool is a WP!
) and that the jesters themselves were sometimes considered to have been touched by God, it's not that far of a stretch...as well as given everything we know of him. Anyhow, that possibly belongs in a few other threads...sorry!Back to the Golden Cock Pheasant crest...the Pheasant is an animal "characterised by strong sexual dimorphism"...is this coincidence or is RH trying to tell us something here?
While some of the crests and meanings may be historically inaccurate, there is nothing to say that RH herself has not attached similar meanings to the crests she has placed within the RotE?
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - Nuytsia - Mar-09-2011
Well those ones certainly seem to fit together very well!
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - Chrischa - Apr-07-2011
Thank you for the nice summary of these meanings, Farseer. It seems that Robin Hobb actually took these things into account when choosing the various crests. I love it when a book turns out even deeper then you thought it did.
Interesting that every single one of these crests are animals - except indeed Patience with her ivy. That's something we see in our own society, too, in sports teams and land mascots, and it's a leftover of a totemic society when animals used to be our gods.
In the Elderling-realm, I like to think that no-one uses the dragon sigil because dragons simply wouldn't allow some silly human to associate so strongly with them.
'thul, there's a theory that mythical creatures represent human's fear of nature, by combining the most dangerous elements of real animals into one, often also including human intelligence. As for lions and such not being known yet, that's actually quite interesting... is it possible these crests were created in colonial times?
The French part of Belgium has a rooster as it's symbol (not crowned, though).
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - Farseer - Mar-05-2013
Why I am here, in this thread at the tick of midnight, I have no idea...except to say that I am mid-post in another thread about something loosely associated with one of these sigils!
Though the dragon isn't/doesn't appear to be the sigil of any 'House' or some such, it is interesting that it features (heavily?) in the artwork of Elderlings and Skilled Ones eg the simulacra carved by Elderlings (but Skilled Ones not so much), Wintrow's stained-glass window, the artwork on the wall at Aslevjal, the windows etc that graced the Citadel of Records in Kelsingra, Fool's Elderling tent, for some examples. In this there at least didn't seem to be any fear involved in depicting a dragon...but then a dragon may very well have considered such works as acts of adoration?
RE: Crests & Sigils (Spoilers all RotE Books) - 'thul - Mar-06-2013
That is quite probable. Dragons do after all consider elderlings to be beautiful because they resemble dragons. It is logical to draw that over to static art.