Rain Wild Chronicles (SPOILERS ALL REALM OF THE ELDERLING BOOKS)

[Farseer]

It gets to a point where there are so many different discussions taking place that it's tricky to know exactly where to put something that relates to so many topics you’re involved in (a bit like Robin's books!) SO I thought I'd just start a new thread. I am, though, sort of continuing a line of thought I posted in the 'Which character is your favourite' thread http://forums.theplenty.net/showthread.php?tid=34&page=4 (namely posts #34 and #38).

I also want to point out that my line of thought here ties in with the fact that I strongly believe that Kelsingra is the same city that Fitz visited in AQ (see my previously posted evidence in posts #23, #24 and #26 on the *spoilers* Dragon Haven, Enjoy it?, Hate it? thread) http://forums.theplenty.net/showthread.php?tid=102&page=3

Now, aside from not being the one to release SWR, or to become a king in a reversal of he and Wintrow’s role etc, something else I considered about Fitz (or the fate side of things for the characters) was how he had a strong feeling at the beginning of Fool's Errand that he would like to go back to the ancient city (which we now know as Kelsingra). After Chade's visit to his hut, Fitz asked Nighteyes what he thought about doing something different, "How would you feel about wandering the world for a bit?" Nighteyes went on to ask, "...You're thinking about that place, back in the Mountains, aren't you?" and Fitz replied, "The ancient city? Yes." He also went on to wonder if they “would ever come back at all.”

At around this same stage, chronologically, events in the Rain Wild Chronicles were occurring with the growth/development of the emerged dragons and the subsequent events that saw the dragons and their keepers making preparations to locate Kelsingra...we know this as Amber had left the Rain Wilds and returned north at the end of the LST to reappear as Fool/Lord Golden in FE. Other indicators include Tintaglia’s noted movements throughout and the fact that Selden had not been present in the Rain Wilds, as recounted in Dragon Keeper (this was because he had gone elsewhere, which we can safely assume to be Buckkeep, where he and the other Bingtown/RW delegates met with Kettricken and Chade to discuss the proposed alliance and war against Chalced).

Did Fitz have a glimpse of foreknowledge that made him consider going to Kelsingra at that time? Just think:

* if he HAD gone there as he had planned (and, interestingly, Nighteyes had actually agreed to go with him this time, which was surprising after he had already prevented Fitz from returning there when they re-visited the Stone Garden at the end of AQ)

* if Fool had NOT visited him at the exact time that he did and so prevented him from leaving for Kelsingra and

* if Chade had NOT sent the messenger that had diverted Fitz from Kelsingra to Buckkeep in order to find Dutiful

Fitz would most likely have been at Kelsingra when the dragons and their keepers had arrived there and would have been alerted to their presence by Heeby’s appearance in the sky!!

So many “what ifs”...so many threads and so many paths...what amazes me about Robin Hobb is not only does she write about all of these different/alternate futures via, say, the Fool’s words of prophecy but she also includes the complexities of the character’s choices within the plot itself.

Will Fitz make an appearance in Kelsingra post-RWC?

[Farseer]

What is special about glamour?

Many times throughout the Rain Wild Chronicles we were able to experience the effects of different levels of dragon glamour through the eyes of the keepers.

This dragon glamour is also introduced and used, to a lesser extent, by Tintaglia during the Liveship Traders books.

The Others were able to change their appearance, smell etc through the use of a glamour over visitors to Others Island (Fitz saw through it, Dutiful was mesmerised by it and Kennit was a bit of both on different occasions, though his charm eventually allowed him to recognise it for what it was).

Fool even spoke of himself as having a glamour and it was this that enabled him to successfully maintain his role as Lord Golden (I thought this was particularly interesting!). At one point, Fitz asked him how it was that he had suddenly become so popular at court. To this, Fool complained that everyone was taken in by his 'glamour' except Fitz...it was only Fitz who could see through it and so saw him as he was.

Are there any other instances of glamour?

Also, is glamour related to Skill?

I seem to recall a particular moment in the RWC between either Thymara and Sintara, or even Sedric and his dragon, where a glamour had worn off and Thymara/Sedric was left not remembering ever wanting to do something in the first place (that sounds a bit vague but hopefully you get my meaning?!).

To me, it sounded identical to the sort of feeling Fitz used to experience when Verity would use the Skill to direct him to his tower. Fitz would simply turn up to Verity without ever having remembered he wanted to go there.

With this in mind, I wonder if a Skill suggestion or even a Skill command (as was placed on Galen, Dutiful and Thick) is the same as a use of glamour?

[Farseer]

Hmm, just thinking that an example of a glamour-like use of Skill would be when Will lured Fitz into the plush room at Tradeford Castle, for Fitz only to discover that the room was actually bare and filled with the coterie and Regal's guards?

[Nuytsia]

Re your first post, it's hard for me to think about RWC and Tawny Man events as happening at the same time for some reason!

I guess Selden's absence from the RW is almost certainly due to his going to the six duchies, but he seems to be gone a heck of a long time! If he HAD got any kind of assistance for the young dragons surely they'd have been mostly dead by the time it got to them. I'm assuming he wasn't even back by (close to) the end of DH or surely he would have tried to follow them up the River (although I take it that might have turned out to be impossible with an ordinary riverboat?)
Actually I found it a bit odd that at least Selden, Malta and Reyn hadn't done more for the young dragons. I think I understand the obstacles in their paths, but still.

Back to the timeline-
I thought that Tintaglia left the RW to go directly to Icefyre when he was released on Aslevjal? Surely it wouldn't take her more than a few days to fly that distance?
So the main events of TM were coming to a conclusion when Tintaglia left the RW?

Argh that timeline confuses me!

To the Fitz thing -
Hmmm that's really interesting about his thinking of going to Kelsingra. I thought he was kind of jaded about life and was thinking of carving himself (and Nighteyes?) a stone dragon. But now that you mention it, maybe he did have some sort of foresight that something was going on at the City.
Hehe I can just imagine Fitz at Kelsingra when all the dragons/keepers show up.
I must admit when I was reading Tawny Man trilogy it annoyed me that Fitz was sent out on what seemed a pretty mundane task that someone else really could have handled! (rescuing Dutiful from the piebalds - he didn't even know the kid for goodness sake)
I must have psychically been wanting him to go and hang out with dragons instead hehehe

[Chrischa]

Back to the timeline-
I thought that Tintaglia left the RW to go directly to Icefyre when he was released on Aslevjal? Surely it wouldn't take her more than a few days to fly that distance?

I agree, I'm not sure it ties up completely either. For one thing, why would a creature such as Tintanglia resort to dream-bullying when the future of her race is at stake and when she'll be a lot more intimidating hovering over the Six Duchies party in person? And for another, it does indeed seem to take her a very long time to show up on Alsjeval.
But then I'm sure we can trust Robin Hobb to have worked it all out correctly.

I must admit when I was reading Tawny Man trilogy it annoyed me that Fitz was sent out on what seemed a pretty mundane task that someone else really could have handled! (rescuing Dutiful from the piebalds - he didn't even know the kid for goodness sake)

Hmm, I'm guessing the Queen and Chade wanted to send Fitz because he, too, is Witted and they might have felt he stood more of a chance.

One other thought I wanted to throw into the ring: if the dragons are really the ones who steer an Elderlings' making, and the rest of the people of that time ended up with ordinairy lives in ordinairy human bodies, it throws a whole new light on the scene in Fitz his vision in Kelsingra, doesn't it?
I always thought that the dragon in his vision was welcomed out of admiration from the people, but what if there was a constant subtle fight going on between the people of that age, to fall into the favour of a dragon and be chosen to become an Elderling? The crowd vying for the honour of working the windlass of the well might have done it for nothing more then personal gain. More then that, I'm sure the Elderlings would have been considered the elite, living in luxury and indulging in art, Skill and beauty, while the normal people would have ended up as the working force out on the streets.

[Farseer]

I always thought that the dragon in his vision was welcomed out of admiration from the people, but what if there was a constant subtle fight going on between the people of that age, to fall into the favour of a dragon and be chosen to become an Elderling? The crowd vying for the honour of working the windlass of the well might have done it for nothing more then personal gain. More then that, I'm sure the Elderlings would have been considered the elite, living in luxury and indulging in art, Skill and beauty, while the normal people would have ended up as the working force out on the streets.

Wow, that's awesome, and not something I had overly thought about before now! There was certainly jealousy etc between the keepers (Greft is a perfect example), not to mention the dragons themselves, so why not between Elderlings or between Elderlings and humans. In the case of Elderlings, that's made me think of the dragon statue that Lady Carrock etc passed when they were buried in Frengong/Trehaug in 'Homecoming'. At the time of reading, I remember wondering if she was the 'head' Elderling, as though there were even different classes of Elderlings...whoever she was, she was obviously someone very significant among them.

Without a doubt there would had to have been friction between Elderlings and humans (as two different 'classes' or 'races'). Of course it could be said that humans viewed Elderlings with awe, not jealousy, as they are, say, when Reyn and Malta were dancing in Jamaillia City (of course, much of this awe would have been due to the rarity of Elderlings...back in history they would have been much more commonplace and so then less awe-inspiring?).

It also talks somewhere in the RWC about the human Queen and King living in Kelsingra, as though Kelsingra was the royal seat for the entire realm and therefore different classes of humans also co-existed as well as Elderlings and dragons. A good example of your subtle friction between humans and Elderlings is when Etta sees Malta's Elderling-looking dress and tells Wintrow that not only will she learn to dance but HER dress (as Queen of the Pirate Isles) will be more magnificant than Malta's !

[Nuytsia]

What is special about glamour?
Fool even spoke of himself as having a glamour and it was this that enabled him to successfully maintain his role as Lord Golden (I thought this was particularly interesting!). At one point, Fitz asked him how it was that he had suddenly become so popular at court. To this, Fool complained that everyone was taken in by his 'glamour' except Fitz...it was only Fitz who could see through it and so saw him as he was.
.................
With this in mind, I wonder if a Skill suggestion or even a Skill command (as was placed on Galen, Dutiful and Thick) is the same as a use of glamour?

Geees I missed that re Lord Golden. I must say I did wonder why he suddenly had so many admirers - not like the Fool or Amber ....

I'm not sure if all the examples of glamour are same as a Skill command. I guess the dragon one almost certainly is ...?

[Lord Punctual]

I think that the reason Tintaglia didn't go to the six Duchies in person is that she was too busy hunting for the hatchlings in the Rain Wilds. I think that after she flew to Aslevjal, she and Icefyre went off to... shall we say enjoy each others company? Persumably, now that she has Icefyre she has lost interest in the weaklings in the rain wilds and couldn't care less if they live or die, which is why she didn't bother coming back.

[Nuytsia]

Fool even spoke of himself as having a glamour and it was this that enabled him to successfully maintain his role as Lord Golden (I thought this was particularly interesting!). At one point, Fitz asked him how it was that he had suddenly become so popular at court. To this, Fool complained that everyone was taken in by his 'glamour' except Fitz...it was only Fitz who could see through it and so saw him as he was.

For some bizarre reason I was thinking about this today (I have a terrible memory, and then I'll think of something completely obscure.... I'm like a 90 year old)
ANyhoo.... I don't have the book at hand but I suspect from memory that in the first book (Fool's Errand?) when the Fool first turns up and Fitz is describing the scene it DOES seem like he has a kind of glamour ... or maybe Fitz is just super impressed to see him.....
So I think possibly the Fool somehow intentionally was able to prevent Fitz being affected by it (after that initial impression).... in fact if anyone could see through it it was Garetha .... the maid who left him the flowers on his tray..... oh she was so sweet! (not like Fitz boo! hehehe...... geees I still remember being gobsmacked that the Fool thought Fitz left those flowers)

[Farseer]

I have some comments but first want to find the scene in Lord Golden's room where glamour is directly mentioned...TTFN!