Gernia vs RotE *spoilers all Hobb books*

[Farseer]

Now that I have finished reading the Soldier Son series, I do intend to go back and respond to some of the older posts in the Gernia threads BUT I'd first like to prompt a comparative discussion covering some similarities and differences between the various elements of the Gernian and Elderling worlds.

Like it or not, as I had read this series after much re-reading and study of the RotE books and short stories, I couldn't help but draw comparisons between characters, experiences, situations and themes etc as I progressed through it. These are the things I'd like to try and have us compare here, rather than which series is 'best'.

To get the ball rolling (but feel free to contribute whatever you like!):

Similarities between Nevare and Fitz

* We were introduced to them both whilst they were still young boys and were privy to their overall development into young men.

* Though they didn't always get it right, and though they were divided against themselves for a portion of their lives, they both displayed talent in their given vocations - Nevare as a soldier's son, cadet, soldier and farmer; Fitz as an assassin's apprentice, later the royal assassin and general royal lacky thereafter etc.

* While there were others involved in their training, both had an older mentor with whom they forged a solid, shared and meaningful relationship...Nevare had Sgt Durill and Fitz had Chade.

* Both took on catalytic roles that would prove to change the fates/courses of their worlds. To fulfil these roles, both were strong in their given magic/s.

* Though strong, they were both "like small boys", ignorant and untrained in their wielding of the magic - examples of this would be the frustration displayed by Olikea or Kinrove with Nevare, and Kettle with Fitz.

* Via their magic, both were able to communicate/travel within their dreams. Nevare dreamwalked and Fitz Skill-dreamed.

* Though having escaped many near-death episodes at various times, both 'died' to their old lives (after copping a beating and being accused of murder!) and also reluctantly returned. Both particularly feared that they would be recognised and made to pay for their 'crimes'.

* Despite losing their faith and way at times, both served and stayed true to their families and monarchs.

* Both took in and cared for a boy who was not their own child, but who they treated like, and came to think of as, a son - Likari and Hap.

* Both seemed to have an unsatiable desire and multiple partners (!), but still held to one main 'love' (by this I mean a love like the love Fitz had for Molly, not that which he had for Fool...let's let that debate rage elsewhere!). It could get a bit confusing here between Nevare and Soldier's Boy (as they had Amzil and Tree Woman) but it was Amzil who won out in the end for Nevare, and Molly for Fitz.

* With so many other loftier goals to strive for, they also both pined for the former lives they could not have and also longed for a life of their own...one that was founded on having a home with hearth and family.

* Both lost parts of themselves and then had to have those parts reunited (with help from an external force eg Kinrove and Fool) to be made whole again...though Nevare then unwittingly divided himself once more!

Though I have others, this will do for the time being...I expect enough debate between us all, just on these points !

[Nuytsia]

Wow some great insights here!

Similarities between Nevare and Fitz

Very interesting to see all these similarities you pointed out. I wondered a few times whether Fitz (and Nevarre) were based on someone in Robin's real life. (I know it would only be loosely based!)
Also, interesting that her most well known protagonists are men. No reason they couldn't be, but if I was to choose a protagonist for a book I must admit I would most likely go with someone of the same gender as myself.

* While there were others involved in their training, both had an older mentor with whom they forged a solid, shared and meaningful relationship...Nevare had Sgt Durill and Fitz had Chade.

Yes they both missed out on healthy parental guidance didn't they?
I think I liked the character (as a person, not as a fictional creation) of Sgt Durill more than I liked Chade, although Chade is probably a more interesting character.

It could get a bit confusing here between Nevare and Soldier's Boy (as they had Amzil and Tree Woman) but it was Amzil who won out in the end for Nevare, and Molly for Fitz.

Hmm again my memory craps out, but didn't Tree Woman get to be with Soldier's Boy? Hey maybe Fitz should have split off part of himself to go off with the Fool. Maybe he DID while he was in the skill pillar and he doesn't know it - hence his seeming quite indifferent to the Fool's absence. Bwahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Just kidding!

* With so many other loftier goals to strive for, they also both pined for the former lives they could not have and also longed for a life of their own...one that was founded on having a home with hearth and family.

Ugh I must admit this theme (or 'message')was one thing that I didn't much care for in a lot of Hobb books.

[Mervi]

Hey Farseer - there was a double posting of this that I deleted - I chose to remove the slightly older version. I don't think there were any differences except some formatting, but just wanted to let you know in case you didn't notice what happened.

[Chrischa]

You are correct, Farseer, there seem to be a lot of similarities between them both. I hadn't even noticed the finer points yet such as them both having an adopted son - even the divided Nevare at the end ends up adopting an entire family, just like Fitz ends up adopting Molly's family.

The largest similarity, for me, is how both of them seem to be at the center of hundreds of crossroads, and how even their smallest choices affect an enormity of possibilities. The main difference seems to be that Fitz is born into this role, but Nevare acts this role only as an embodiment of the magic - he himself is of no importance whatsoever, he simply was the person best placed to serve the magic.

There are three more similarities I'd like to add;

- Though they both ended up being good at the roles chosen for them, they also both displayed talents which indicated that, given free choice, they would have done well too. Fitz had his drawing talent and Nevare displays quite a writing talent. Interesting how Nevare himself remarks that maybe the magic manifestates to him through his writing, just as it does with dancing in Kinrove.

- Going from that; both also were forced into their roles by others. Fitz out of political necessity, Nevare along with everyone else by religion.

- Both grew up in the upper classes. Though Fitz was only an offshoot of the royal family and thus kept in a minor role during his growing up, you can't deny he spend his youth in luxery.

[Farseer]

Hey Farseer - there was a double posting of this

Thanks Mervi! There’s been something strange happening with lots of my posts of late, but has to do with my computer, rather than the site, I’d say.

even the divided Nevare at the end ends up adopting an entire family, just like Fitz ends up adopting Molly's family.

Yes, I agree! The only real difference is that Fitz had at least fathered two children of his own as well.

The largest similarity, for me, is how both of them seem to be at the center of hundreds of crossroads, and how even their smallest choices affect an enormity of possibilities.

Yup, same for me! As soon as this became apparent, it was hard for me to separate the two. Nevare could just as easily have been given the title of ‘Changer’ or ‘Catalyst’ as Fitz had.

The main difference seems to be that Fitz is born into this role, but Nevare acts this role only as an embodiment of the magic - he himself is of no importance whatsoever, he simply was the person best placed to serve the magic.

I’m with you but still thinking on this!

- Though they both ended up being good at the roles chosen for them, they also both displayed talents which indicated that, given free choice, they would have done well too. Fitz had his drawing talent and Nevare displays quite a writing talent. Interesting how Nevare himself remarks that maybe the magic manifestates to him through his writing, just as it does with dancing in Kinrove.

Yes, I thought of these similarities too! Not only did they display these drawing and writing talents but they also documented their lives, and saw the importance of it. While Nevare obviously had his soldier’s son journal, Fitz worked hard at writing an historical account of the Six Duchies on his many scrolls (though just as often wrote about himself and his own experiences, somewhat like a journal). Fitz also showed a talent with creating inks...something that even impressed Chade when he first visited Fitz in FE.

Both also became quite talented in the ability to translate...Fitz the scrolls and Nevare his academy texts.

Similar to Nevare's role, possibly a part of the role of Fitz as ‘Changer’ was to set things down on paper to ensure that future generations were passed on the greater knowledge that has been lost for so long. Of course, this was something encouraged early on by Fedwren and Patience, much as Nevare was encouraged to write by his family and by virtue of the soldier son tradition. As an aside, I have found it interesting that there has been at least one person with such a role in each of the Hobb series...Verity/Fitz in the Farseer/Tawny Man books; Ephron/Brashen in the LST and Alise in the RWC...all seem to have been either charged or self-imposed with the responsibility to record a variety of things in either written or pictorial form.

- Going from that; both also were forced into their roles by others. Fitz out of political necessity, Nevare along with everyone else by religion.

Yes, although Nevare attests that he did also freely choose the military path. I would add that they were also forced by a major degree into the greater roles of ‘Changer’ or ‘Great One’ simply by the custody of their magics. While one could say that they still had ‘choice’, I’m not sure if they could ever have truly walked away from these roles.

- Both grew up in the upper classes. Though Fitz was only an offshoot of the royal family and thus kept in a minor role during his growing up, you can't deny he spend his youth in luxery.

No, I doubt anyone could disagree that Fitz lived well, and was most certainly exposed to the standard of training and life befitting a noble-born child, just as Nevare was eg educated in manners, social etiquette, numbers and letters, weaponry, history, horsemanship etc.

It’s also interesting that, while they both experienced this and other periods of ‘plenty’, they had to experience periods of serious ‘lack’ as well. Some examples of this would be when Fitz traversed the Cursed Shores with Nighteyes in a seemingly beggarly state (clothes in tatters, living only off the meat that they could hunt etc), and he was also mistaken for a beggar whilst on his way to Tradeford...not to mention his simple cottage life that saw him unable to offer Chade a teacup without a chip in it (has nothing to do with it but why am I suddenly thinking of Kennit’s teacups from Others Island ?!).

For Nevare...he found himself with limited resources on a number of occasions (after his father disowning him) and he also lived in a humble, isolated cottage with limited possessions.

One other thing I found similar was their openness to, and awareness of, nature. While Nevare’s experiences in this regard were helped by those of Soldier’s Boy, I thought that the ‘oneness’ they felt with all things was exactly like the ‘oneness’ that Fitz often experienced via the Wit. That Fitz attested many times that the trees contained Wit, particularly those ancient ones higher up in the Mountain Kingdom, made it an easy step for me to take to accept that trees in the SS series could actually contain the anmas or lives of humans/beings. It definitely made me wonder if it was only ‘age’ that gave the RotE trees their ancient, Wit presence...or something more! Maybe those in the upper reaches of the Mountain Kingdom are kaembra-like ones !

This brings me to another similarity between the two series, but rather to the theme of lives/souls able to be contained rather than just Fitz and Nevare. Wizardwood and memory stone can store anmas, as can the kaembra trees. In the case of the trees, the past knowledge from the owners of these lives can be used to advantage those living in the present, not unlike how the knowledge of anmas within a liveship can be used eg the old Great Ones could give advice whereas Paragon was able to use Kennit’s nautical knowledge and Vivacia could use Ephron’s. Memories of all dragon-kind are also digested by dragons via their wizardwood cases and then used to assist the newer generation.

Lots more to come...!

[Farseer]

Just another quick similarity while I'm thinking about the two gods clashing over Nevare...when I read it, I thought also of the two beings who fought over Malta when she first walked on Paragon's decks. Amber was there and it had appeared to everyone that Malta has simply fainted. Will put a question regarding the actual identity of these beings in a RotE thread though.

[Chrischa]

Hmm... good post. I want to set my teeth in this.

Yup, same for me! As soon as this became apparent, it was hard for me to separate the two. Nevare could just as easily have been given the title of ‘Changer’ or ‘Catalyst’ as Fitz had.

Of course, storywise that is logical. You'll always follow the most interesting path in a story. What's the point telling this from, say, Epiny's point of view when it's Nevare who is in the center of things.

That being said, imagine the sort of book it would have been had this story been told from Soldier's Boy's point of view.

And, going from that, isn't it incredible that RH manages to tell a story where for one third of it's lenght, her main character and narrator is a powerless entity trapped in someone else's body? Wow!

Yes, I thought of these similarities too! Not only did they display these drawing and writing talents but they also documented their lives, and saw the importance of it. While Nevare obviously had his soldier’s son journal, Fitz worked hard at writing an historical account of the Six Duchies on his many scrolls (though just as often wrote about himself and his own experiences, somewhat like a journal). Fitz also showed a talent with creating inks...something that even impressed Chade when he first visited Fitz in FE.

I think that for Fitz, his writing was a form of therapy, trying to make sense of his life and to deal with the hurt it had caused him. After all he could hardly run to a psychologist.

Yes, although Nevare attests that he did also freely choose the military path.

Of course, he never even considered anything else. I do wonder if Nevare had the right kind of character to be a soldier. I'm thinking about the one of the worst scenes in the book, when those soldiers watch that tribe of Plainspeople drown themselves and their families in the river, rather then to live under Gernian rule. It broke many of the soldiers and if I think about Nevare, with his kindness and his respect for all living things, I wonder if he could stomach murdering for nothing then the profit of his king.
But then I guess that the Nevare we know is the leftover, after Lisana took away his tougher side.

I would add that they were also forced by a major degree into the greater roles of ‘Changer’ or ‘Great One’ simply by the custody of their magics. While one could say that they still had ‘choice’, I’m not sure if they could ever have truly walked away from these roles.

Very true. They both had too strong a sense of responsability to let someone else solve the problems that they knew were theirs.

No, I doubt anyone could disagree that Fitz lived well, and was most certainly exposed to the standard of training and life befitting a noble-born child, just as Nevare was eg educated in manners, social etiquette, numbers and letters, weaponry, history, horsemanship etc.

Interesting there how the boys get their days filled with lessons and purpose, while the girls and woman are forced to wile away their lives with nothing but idle pastimes - and how Nevare absolutely doesn't see this.

One of my favorite quotes in Robin Hobb's books is from Kettricken when she says the Six Duchies talk about time as something you want to get rid of.
That opened my eyes! Everyone wishes for more time, yet we spend so much of our lives with "pastimes".

Maybe I should put this in the favourite-quotes thread.

It’s also interesting that, while they both experienced this and other periods of ‘plenty’, they had to experience periods of serious ‘lack’ as well.

Yes, very true. RH does love putting her characters through their share of misery, doesn't she?

One other thing I found similar was their openness to, and awareness of, nature.

I thought that for Nevare, this was very remarkable. First of all he is raised to be a soldier, which is according to a book I read derived from the life of a hunter, which stands in direct conflict with nature. In fact, this book claimed that one of the reasons that humanity can do the atrocities it does, is because of the hunter's fight with nature, and the resulting feelings of guild and shame.

But I'm drifting off. What I want to say is: a boy who is raised as a warrior is less likely to show respect and reverence to nature and other living things. They have to form a sort of callous over their soul to protect themselves from the acts necessary in a warrior's life.
That being said, Nevare never actually performs any of the warrior's acts. He is trained to deal with them, yes, but he never kills anything or anyone in his training. For many warrior-cultures throughout human history, the act of killing was the central part of their boy's training.

Secondly, he is raised by a man who spend his life fighting nature, inside a mansion which is created as an unnatural anomaly in a natural landscape. The Plainspeople always managed perfectly well to let the Plains sustain them, but the Gernians need to create this artificial island around themselves.
I think that while a child growing up on such an island might never actually reflect on the wrongness of this, it would certainly have an impact on their character.

I also think that if you grew up like Fitz, in constant contact with nature, you couldn't help but respect it. Very similar to that movie Avatar, actually, where the natives can link to all living things and thus they live in harmony.

This brings me to another similarity between the two series, but rather to the theme of lives/souls able to be contained rather than just Fitz and Nevare.

Ah, of course! I knew it sounded familiar when I read about the Kaembra trees, I just didn't make the connection!
The main difference being that people's amnas seem to dissolve into the memory stone, until they aren't really the same beings anymore that they were in life, wereas the trees seem to not only preserve people's character, they also allow them to carry on although with a different body.

Lots more to come...!

Looking forward to it!

[Nuytsia]

not to mention his simple cottage life that saw him unable to offer Chade a teacup without a chip in it (has nothing to do with it but why am I suddenly thinking of Kennit’s teacups from Others Island ?!).

And why am I suddenly thinking it's time for me to buy new crockery?

First of all he is raised to be a soldier, which is according to a book I read derived from the life of a hunter, which stands in direct conflict with nature. In fact, this book claimed that one of the reasons that humanity can do the atrocities it does, is because of the hunter's fight with nature, and the resulting feelings of guild and shame.

Ok I guess I'm off topic, but that sounds like an interesting book. Is it saying that the solider is in direct conflict with nature, or the hunter? (or both)
Hard to think of a hunter in direct conflict with nature? (like, a lot of nature IS hunting.....)

[Chrischa]

Ok I guess I'm off topic, but that sounds like an interesting book. Is it saying that the solider is in direct conflict with nature, or the hunter? (or both)
Hard to think of a hunter in direct conflict with nature? (like, a lot of nature IS hunting.....)

I'll just slip off-topic with you. Hey, it's a very important theme in the book, so we're allowed!

I've mentioned this book before on these forums; An Unnatural Order by Jim Mason. I'm not going to put down a summary of the entire book here but I'd recommend reading it. I wouldn't know if everything he writes is true; I've not read a counter-argument so I don't know enough about it. But it all makes so much sense.

He claims that humans were not supposed to be hunters and that when we started, 40.000 years ago, it was to test man's strenght against the powers of nature who were at that point all around us. Before that, our religions focussed on nature and on the idea that everything around us had a soul. But when we started killing our - then - equals, animals, the resulting feelings of shame and guild had to be resolved in many ways. By hatred, disdain, passing the blame, rituals of being purified from blame, or rituals that god-appointed certain people to kill.
It's a theory closely tied in with Joseph Cambell's work on rituals, another one I'd recommend.
He says that the religions who followed this area focussed on shifting man from blame, by having a god who resides above the Earth giving man the right to rule over all other living things, and taking away the idea that animals have souls - thus diminishing guild.

The book has a lot more to say about man's resulting attitude towards woman and the effect all this has had on our way of thinking, but that's too much to go into now.

Basically, to answer your question; hunting is indeed part of nature but only if it's part of the circle of life. Meat-eating animals are meant to hunt, by doing so they in their turn have their place in nature. But humans stepped out of that circle when we turned our vegetarian bodies to learning to digest meat. (We've done that by now; man is an omnivour and our bodies have adapted to eating animal products.) And that is why human hunting is in conflict with nature and why warriors and soldiers evolved from hunters; their feelings of hate, rage, guild and shame eventually turned against their own species.
I know there are many people now who don't feel that way about animals at all, but you have to remember he's talking about the way of thinking of 40.000 years ago, when man first became "intelligent" enough to reflect on their place in the world, when nature was the only world they knew, and when animals were the closest related things to humans on this planet. To kill them, back then, was like kiling your own god.

Completely off-topic now: it's the thing that has always bothered me about eating meat... there's nothing wrong with it in itself, but humans have somewhere taken away the honour and dignity between hunter and prey. The way we treat animals is fundamentally wrong.

Anyway, to turn this back on-topic; I wonder if RH's discription of just how much food there is to be found in this forest is entirely possible. I'm sure she's done her research, but it seems like an awful lot of people to be sustained by not that much land, not to mention these Great Ones who just eat... and eat.
I know we'd probably be blown away by just how much food there can be found if you just gather and aren't too picky about taste, but still... .

[Farseer]

And, going from that, isn't it incredible that RH manages to tell a story where for one third of it's lenght, her main character and narrator is a powerless entity trapped in someone else's body? Wow!

REALLY quick visit...I thought this was FANTASTIC too and so well written!!!

It also gave me a much greater understanding of how ascendancy worked in the RotE books eg Paragon's dragons, Vivacia when she was dominated by Bolt etc. The whole time I was reading Nevare's experiences I kept thinking, "So that's how awful it felt being stuck way down low in the belly of a liveship!"

It also put me in mind of Verity-as-Dragon and other memory stone/wizardwood-crafted objects, such as the Rooster Crown...before going into his dragon, Verity told Fitz that while Kettle etc would be a part of the dragon, HE would be the dragon...and I took this to mean that he would have ascendancy in much the same way as those within the liveships did, and he was able to claim that place as he was King of the Six Duchies?

While I felt it would be a pretty sad way to go while reading through the RotE books, it wasn't until I read the SS series that I personally experienced, through Nevare's experiences, the frustration and fear associated with being so powerless and isolated!!

EDIT: Oh, and that Nevare and Soldier's Boy also had to merge to end their turmoil, and thus enable both to share ascendancy, was the same that had to happen for Vivacia, Paragon etc. That leads me to 'choosing life' but I will have to come back!!!