Wintrow/Kennit SPOILERS ALL HOBB BOOKS INCL COD

['thul]

has no point, fool-ish. They completed their destined purposes... Let him live his happily ever after, these beings say...

[fool-ish]

Of course it has a point! The end of FF left the pair of them in a semi-limbo state with regards to one another's lives. Fool didn't even know if Fitz was alive! And a reunion doesn't have to mean unhappiness.

[londonlassie]

This has nothing to do with Fitz or the Fool, and actually not that much to do with Wintrow either, but I'm rereading LST and I just had to make a little observation about Kennit. In SOM, when he's on the Marietta and Etta is trying to talk to him about capturing a liveship, I noticed this:

"I have been thinking about the liveship that eluded you today," she dared to say. She lifted her eyes to his, dark eyes too bold for his taste. She seemed to sense that, for she cast them down again, even before he barked, "Don't speak to me of that."
"I won't," she promised him gently. But after a moment, she broke her word, as women always did. - "Plots And Perils", page 573

Wait up there, Kennit. Where did that come from?

What struck me was that it didn't seem a particularly chauvinistic comment. It sounded more to me like...I don't know. Bitter? Like he's been let down really badly in the past and that's jaded his view of the entire gender. Now I could understand if he was talking about men - then, I could just pin the blame on Igrot because he was Kennit's main influence in how he views males. But where on Earth did he get to have a problem with girls?

I have a feeling that him thinking Sorcor is ridiculous for wanting to court Faldin's daughter, even though he earlier thought of her as half of "the first offer from Divvytown, no need to be hasty in choosing", which to me said that at some point, he'd get married if he thought it was going to be advantageous to his plans, also has some relevance here but I'm not sure quite where it fits.

I don't think I've ever heard of a same-sex abused child who grew up to have real negative feelings towards or about the opposite sex, although I'm sure it's happened in the real world.

And does that have anything to do with how he feels about Wintrow - who's small, quite feminine according to SOM, but still male? Maybe part of why Kennit likes him is because he thinks Wintrow's more likely to mean what he says, to be honest with him?

Does anyone have any ideas as to where this mistrust came from? The only thing I can think of is his mother - say, if she said anything along the lines of I won't let him hurt you again and then obviously failed to live up to what she'd promised him, then that would understandably leave him thinking girls don't keep promises. But the image I got was that Kennit was taken away from his mother very young and didn't see her after that until he was a young adult and took over his first ship.

What I also find confusing is that even after his upbringing, which must have really made him think of sex as a punishment and something he hated doing, he still has a sexual relationship. Etta said she'd known him for three years, so she's probably not his first 'girlfriend', for want of a better word. So at some point, the adolescent Kennit after Igrot's death must have decided to do it even if he hated it for...what? The sake of his image? To try and convince himself that Igrot never happened? Because he thought he had no choice?

And in Wintrow's case, Kennit even likes the idea of a physical relationship. This is just probably a Kennit-ism with no real explanation behind it, but it just threw me a bit.

Bleurrrrgh, long post alert, and I'm probably talking nonsense again. I'm pretty sure it's becoming a habit But I thought I'd jot this down here anyway, even if it makes no sense at all, because this is the only place I can talk about Hobb and have people know what the heck I'm on about

[Farseer]

I have about one minute and I'm the world's slowwwwwwwwwest typist!

I don't believe that Kennit specifically has had an issue with any particular female in the past that then has caused this trait. Rather, he extends that to all. Argh, so much to pull apart (I'll have to come back!!) but his distain, for starters, is his armour. No matter if they were male, female, a liveship, an Other, a Satrap...he distained them to cloak and protect himself after what took place with Igrot. For his own purposes he was able to set this aside for brief moments (say, with Vivacia, who he needed to woo so that he could possess her and thus venture up the Rain River, or even to also fill his base need to be linked to a liveship as he believed Paragon gone etc) but, essentially, he placed himself on a pedestal and distained all to save himself.

Vulnerability was a weakness to Kennit and was a chink in his armour he did not wish to have - he did, after all, choose to have his own, much-loved liveship destroy himself - a number of times! - to ensure the removal or deletion of his weakest moments. This distain of weakness is, of course, unless the show of such weakness advanced his purposes.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that, through his charm, some of his signs of vulnerability that he would not otherwise have shown (the example of the poem which made Etta cry and love him all the more) proved to actually advance his situation. In this, his charm couldn't stand him but still cared enough about those around him (Etta particularly) to want to make Kennit appear like a much better person than he really was.

An afterthought that I may come to regret because a) it has nothing to do with anything and b) I haven't thought about it (!)...in a way, Kennit's charm acted somewhat like a reservoir of knowledge/memories in similar-ish fashion ('thul beings, I didn't say 'similar'! ) to the Rooster Crown and other memory stone/wizardwood objects...bringing back much of what he'd wanted to rid himself of.

More soon...I think I may have overused my 'minute'! o_O

['thul]

agreed. There has not been any evidence that he had bad experience with anyone specific (except Igrot), so its most likely a defense against everything. Senseless, yes, but present nonetheless.

[Farseer]

^ I'm coming back to this but, I've gotta say (!), I can't *believe* that I am trying to get inside Kennit's head with this...if I do that, I might sympathise...and...I...can't...have...THAT! Nope. You right the wrongs not by re-enacting them but by *not* re-enacting them. What was I saying about coming bacK? Moving on...

Of course it has a point! The end of FF left the pair of them in a semi-limbo state with regards to one another's lives. Fool didn't even know if Fitz was alive! And a reunion doesn't have to mean unhappiness.

Yup, what fool-ish said. Fool-ish is not at all foolish in this. Nup. She's wise that one.

[londonlassie]

Argh, so much to pull apart (I'll have to come back!!) but his distain, for starters, is his armour. No matter if they were male, female, a liveship, an Other, a Satrap...he distained them to cloak and protect himself after what took place with Igrot.

That's an interesting way of looking at it, I'd never thought about it that way before. I'd always put Kennit's disdain down to the fact that he didn't have the emotional faculties necessary to feel anything else for other people.

For his own purposes he was able to set this aside for brief moments (say, with Vivacia, who he needed to woo so that he could possess her and thus venture up the Rain River, or even to also fill his base need to be linked to a liveship as he believed Paragon gone etc) but, essentially, he placed himself on a pedestal and distained all to save himself.

I did find it sad how Kennit wanted any liveship but his liveship. Paragon was the one creature who could have really healed Kennit, and Kennit just pushed him away.

No sense at all, that one.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that, through his charm, some of his signs of vulnerability that he would not otherwise have shown (the example of the poem which made Etta cry and love him all the more) proved to actually advance his situation. In this, his charm couldn't stand him but still cared enough about those around him (Etta particularly) to want to make Kennit appear like a much better person than he really was.

I like to think the charm represents Kennit as he would've been without all the trauma Igrot put him through. Good Kennit. (As an aside, I'm pretty sure it was a thread on this forum which gave me that idea ) But I do like to think that Kennit as he should've been would have loved Etta as much as she loved him.

It's interesting that Kennit, a human, didn't realise that showing his vulnerable side would only appeal to Etta's nurturing instincts, but the charm, a dragon, did.

An afterthought that I may come to regret because a) it has nothing to do with anything and b) I haven't thought about it (!)...in a way, Kennit's charm acted somewhat like a reservoir of knowledge/memories in similar-ish fashion ('thul beings, I didn't say 'similar'! ) to the Rooster Crown and other memory stone/wizardwood objects...bringing back much of what he'd wanted to rid himself of.

The charm did seem maliciously intent on forcing Kennit to face his demons. Pretty much everything it said, it dragged Igrot up. I don't think the charm was a bad guy at all, though. I think he just thought there was something to be achieved by shoving Igrot in Kennit's face the whole time, to make Kennit realise the road he was going down and how it was going to end. He just didn't count on Kennit being as far gone as he was.

I can't *believe* that I am trying to get inside Kennit's head with this...

My advice? Stay out of Kennit's head. You'll get lost or locked in and never get out again. I'm pretty sure I've been wandering around in there for about three years, and I still haven't found the exit.

...if I do that, I might sympathise...and...I...can't...have...THAT!

My mother happened to mention just how far gone I was the other day when I made the engaging, intelligent and well-thought-out argument, "Poor Kennit, it's not his fault. He's just misunderstood!"

I used to think Kennit was mildly sympathetic and rather frightening in his insanity. He got more...likeable (wrong word, but I can't think of the right one)...the more I found out about his past and the more I sympathised with him.

[fool-ish]

I, too, see Kennit as misunderstood. I can empathise/sympathise with him in many respects...and going off at a tangent here, I felt the same way about Theon Greyjoy in ASoIaF. I will always strive to find the good in people, there's bound to be a little somewhere..

[londonlassie]

I, too, see Kennit as misunderstood. I can empathise/sympathise with him in many respects...and going off at a tangent here, I felt the same way about Theon Greyjoy in ASoIaF. I will always strive to find the good in people, there's bound to be a little somewhere..

I feel a little vindicated now, fool-ish. I'm not always so sympathetic - Torg and Igrot, for example, I believed to be genuinely bad people with absolutely no redeeming features. But I always try to see the good in characters like Kennit, because he did have good in him. It was just buried very, very deep down, and he didn't particularly like it as a part of himself.

Which was probably why I couldn't reconcile what happened with Althea with what I knew of Kennit.

[Farseer]

I can empathise/sympathise with him in many respects...and going off at a tangent here, I felt the same way about Theon Greyjoy in ASoIaF.

Without adding umpteen ASoIaF spoilers, ^ this I understand with but not so with Kennit. More later, especially as I felt that what took place between Althea and Kennit just had to happen. I thought it was inevitable and a confirmation of the road he'd gone down and could never come back up. A confirmation of Kennit.

It *is* sad, for those he hurt and especially himself and the life he may have had in place of the one he actually did. I can sympathise, empathise and understand about all he experienced and the consequences of those earlier experiences, with some wrong choices made, with his need for distain and domination, his general lot in life...but I can't sympathise with his ultimate choices where he was able to create change within himself but chose not to. Nobody can deny the change he created in the realm but, in himself, no...and it's sad.

Maybe, just maybe, if he had not given so much to Paragon, he'd never have got to that point. Possibly this contributed more to his decisions and choices than even the events of his past. We only have to look at Fitz. While he didn't go and rape someone while essential parts of himself dwelled within a stone dragon, he did make decisions based on what he had left, and different decisions to what he'd have made if whole. Just putting this here to remind myself to come back to this point. ^

If anything, I feel sorrow for Paragon, for how he must have felt knowing that Kennit was capable of the things he was capable of. We talk about the love between Fitz and Fool and Nighteyes etc a lot, but I'm not sure that there's a greater or truer love within the RotE than Paragon's for Kennit.

Coming back to respond to all of the other good stuff...