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+--- Thread: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you (spoilers all RotE books) (/thread-194.html)
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - NeverBeenWise - Aug-23-2010
The pronunciation of everything drives me absolutely crazy. Mervi, thanks for confirming that about Chade. But what about everything else? Is the "live" in "liveships" pronounced like in living or like in alive? How about Jamaillia - is it a soft or a hard "J"? And Chalced. I've always thought of it as "CHAL-sid," but it could be "SHAL-sid," "KAL-sid," or maybe even "CHALST." Sometimes I wish there was a pronunciation guide somewhere. And I'd absolutely love to hear the Jamaillian, Chalcedean, Six Duchies, Out Islander, and Mountain Kingdom accents.
About Chade's name, I'm guessing that someone, maybe Shrewd, said during an argument that he was not a proper Farseer and that his name should reflect his status as an illegitimate son, and then the name stuck as Chade took more and more of a liking to it. A far-fetched concept... but the only one I can really think of.
I don't think that Jamaillia and the Rain Wilds have separate languages from the Six Duchies, because if I remember correctly Jek was from the Six Duchies, and it was never implied that she had learned Jamaillian well or poorly. It just said that she had an accent.
I agree with your analysis of the comment about "the other one," Mervi. Really, to me it just seemed to imply that Chade was the go-to guy for training someone to be an assassin, and that he wasn't just taking Fitz under his wing to be kind. Also, the word "break" is sometimes used to mean "train," which is how I interpreted it...
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - redchild - Aug-23-2010
(Aug-23-2010, 02:30 AM (UTC))NeverBeenWise Wrote: The pronunciation of everything drives me absolutely crazy. Mervi, thanks for confirming that about Chade. But what about everything else? Is the "live" in "liveships" pronounced like in living or like in alive? How about Jamaillia - is it a soft or a hard "J"? And Chalced. I've always thought of it as "CHAL-sid," but it could be "SHAL-sid," "KAL-sid," or maybe even "CHALST." Sometimes I wish there was a pronunciation guide somewhere. And I'd absolutely love to hear the Jamaillian, Chalcedean, Six Duchies, Out Islander, and Mountain Kingdom accents.
Yeah it can drive you crazy when you've been saying it one way in your head the entire time and then find out that it's pronounced completely different. I used to pronounce Chade with a hard ch- until I read the Fool's line about "light and shade." It was a face palm moment for me. As for the others, I just stick with what I prefer until proven otherwise (but I might still prefer my own way of pronunciation anyhow): Liveships with "alive," Jamaillia with a hard "j," and Chalced as "chal-sid"
On languages, it seems that they don't pose a barrier in terms of communication. Despite this, it still doesn't prevent culture clash.
(Aug-21-2010, 11:49 AM (UTC))thul Wrote: These beings sense a vague middle-eastern and/or roman tendency in chalced. But not a pure tendency.
Bingtown bears a resemblence to colonial times.
The biggest difference is that all the cultures are in around iron ages... They have steel and such, but they do not have any forms of firearms... The sole long-range weapons are catapults, ballistae and bows. that changes a lot where culture is concerned...
Yes, while they are all different and are anachronistic compared to real life, none of them have industrialized (and would otherwise be steampunk.)
The Six Duchies is very obviously Anglo-Norman, probably earlier in the Dark ages as I don't recall there ever being any sort of full-body plate armor in use. The Mountain Kingdom and Out Islanders have very strong Nordic influences, also during the Dark ages. Bingtown seems to be modeled on secular Dutch society as they seem so focused on business and trade, though I too feel as though they come out of the Englightenment. The Pirate Isles based on the seafaring pirates during the age of Exploration. Jamaillia and Chalced seem to have some Roman and Asian influences but I can't put my finger on which; possibly Indian or Middle Eastern.
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - Nuytsia - Aug-23-2010
(Aug-21-2010, 02:14 PM (UTC))Mervi Wrote: I'm kind of thinking the "other one" that was broken was someone else they had tried to train as an assassin but who had failed the task(s).
I'm a little confused now - didn't you say that quote was something Chade said, implying it was Shrewd who had done/organised the 'tests' he was referring to? Wouldn't it be the other way around for any assassin tests/training?
(Aug-23-2010, 02:30 AM (UTC))NeverBeenWise Wrote: Is the "live" in "liveships" pronounced like in living or like in alive? How about Jamaillia - is it a soft or a hard "J"? And Chalced. I've always thought of it as "CHAL-sid,"
I always heard the name Chade with a hard CH so now I'm doomed to be stuck with that even though it's wrong!
I say liveships as in 'alive' ..... and re Jamaillia, well I didn't even know there was more than one way to pronounce J !!! I say J as in jam....?
I also say CHAL-sid more or less..... well maybe CHAL-sed
(Aug-23-2010, 02:30 AM (UTC))NeverBeenWise Wrote: About Chade's name, I'm guessing that someone, maybe Shrewd, said during an argument that he was not a proper Farseer and that his name should reflect his status as an illegitimate son, and then the name stuck as Chade took more and more of a liking to it. A far-fetched concept... but the only one I can really think of.
Not so far fetched, I can certainly see this happening!
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - joost - Aug-23-2010
My pronunciations:
Chalced - Shal-ked
Chalcedean - Shal-ke-dee-an
Jamaillia - Dzha-mai-ya
Chade - Shade
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - Mervi - Aug-24-2010
Nyutsia, I don't KNOW who says that quote - Shrewd or Chade. But it seems that any such tests would be set by Shrewd, as he was the one the assassins were trained for. So even if it would be Chade giving the orders to the assassin-in-training, he could blame his younger brother for the results.
I also forgot to add that the Mountain Kingdom has its own language too - Fitz clearly mentions this is in AA and Kettricken refers to it again later.
The only things I know about the "proper" pronunciations are ones that Robin has mentioned years ago in the newsgroup:
- it's not that important to her how people pronounce the names, there's no definite "right" or "wrong" (but the following are how she herself imagined the following names to sound like, as I recall that conversation)
- Chade as in "shade" (this also fits with one of the Fool's jests/advice to Fitz in RA where he talks about shades)
- Burrich with a "ck" in the end, not the German "ch" (as in "ich") most people (me included) initially think of when seeing that name
- the Mountain names (Kettricken, Rurisk etc) should sound "scandinavian" (I think, but am not sure, that she means where the stress falls in each word - try to find a sample of spoken Swedish online, and I think you'll understand)
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - Nuytsia - Aug-24-2010
Hmmm I see .....
Whoa I was hearing Burrich as plain old .... ch as in cheese ...... I was going to say 'as it's spelled' but I guess that would only be if you are thinking in English!
I wonder if it's kind of Scottish sounding? (ch as in loch!) That makes sense , good ole Burrich!
Funny thing about 'Kettricken' is that I only realised just the other week that there is no 'n' in it!!! This whole time I had been hearing it (and somehow seeing it) Kettrinken ?? When I type it I can SEE that's wrong, but somehow my brain 'heard' it with an n !!
I think I was putting a real emphasis on the c in the middle and started 'hearing' an n in there just before it ...... or something......
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - 'thul - Aug-24-2010
these beings are almost certain that they have always used the "burrick" pronunciation...
adding non-existent letters to pronunciations is quite common... 'thul do it all the time...
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - Farseer - Aug-25-2010
(Aug-21-2010, 12:39 PM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote: Farseer re your take on the first quote, I can't recall a lot about Chivalry... do you mean he was 'broken' in some general sense, or something about his Skill ability was broken?
I just assumed that quote was referring to Skill ability?
No, I don't think the Skill has anything to do with what is being spoken of here, Nuytsia, particularly as Fitz was not even learning to Skill at the time. It was only after Chivalry had died and Patience had returned to Buck that she demanded that Fitz finally be taught. As far as I understand, the quote simply refers to the tests that Shrewd had put in place, for Fitz and at least one other, for whatever reasons. This is confirmed later when Shrewd himself tells Fitz that it was all his idea, and not Chade's, and he gives 'a king's word' that he would never again test Fitz in that way. In this, it was definitely Shrewd, and not Chade, who demanded the tests but it seems that these tests may have been encouraged by the queen (or so it seems to me!). Chade refers later to a comment from Shrewd that says something like' the king's lips speaking with the queen's words' and I felt that this insight of Chade's could apply to this instance as well ie Shrewd demanding tests with his own lips but motivated by or using the queen's words.
As for 'broken', yes, I mean in the general sense that Chivalry, as a man, husband, father and Prince/King-in-Waiting, had been broken in the end and his right to the throne severely dealt with and, in fact, it was only a short time after this scene between Shrewd and Chade that Buckkeep was formally notified of Chivalry's fatal 'accident'...an accident that ensured Chivalry would never seek to claim the crown for either himself or Fitz. Who knows what tests Chivalry may have been given to prove himself, especially as even Chade admitted to Fitz later that Chivalry could never do right in Shrewd's eyes once he had chosen to court Patience.
(Aug-21-2010, 12:39 PM (UTC))Nuytsia Wrote: Re the second quote, I wouldn't have read it that way.... was the word 'loyalty' in italics or something?
(then again, if I read the WHOLE passage I MAY have read it that way... I really should get all the books!)
No, nothing was in italics (the emphasis was mine)...it was just the way I understood the passage
.As for the possibility of Chade and Shrewd talking of another, different assassin, well, I could maybe see that but can't guess who it could have been? Fitz was well placed to be in the role, as was Chade, given their 'bastard' status (all of the advantages of which were outlined to Fitz in the beginning, by Chade). Rosemary, too, was an optimum choice after all she had learned working for Regal. Hmm, I will have to have another look and see if there was ever any other mention of an earlier apprentice, prior to Fitz. At the end of FF, Chade said to Fitz that if it hadn't been for him, he would have stayed in the background as an old spider forever, and have never come out into the light...makes me think it was only Fitz he had been with after Verity and Chivalry, and then Dutiful, of course.
I have a wildcat screeching outside making it IMPOSSIBLE to concentrate...will come back!!
Now, having got rid of the annoying cat...'rid' as in 'chased away', not 'killed'!...
(Aug-21-2010, 02:14 PM (UTC))Mervi Wrote: Chade is actually one of the few names that Robin has ever commented on re: pronunciation - it is indeed meant to be sound just like "shade". But as to his name, I'm not even sure it was originally Chade... after all he introduces himself to Fitz as "You can call me Chade. And I shall call you?" And when Fitz doesn't answer, he says "Boy. Those are not names for either of us, but they'll do, for the time we'll have together." (emphasis mine)
Thanks for confirming that pronunciation, Mervi!
Yes, now that you quote it, I remember Chade saying that to Fitz. Of course, if Fitz was named prior to being taken to Buckkeep (Keppet), then it only stands to reason that Chade had also gone by another name, particularly as he was a few years older than Fitz had been...Fitz was six whereas Chade had been at least nine or ten? Ahh, maybe 'Chade' was his Naming Ceremony name
! What I like about this 'using names that aren't really names' line from Chade is that it puts me in mind of the dragons who offer names that aren't really their names (!!), or who seem satisfied with whatever names their keepers come up with...definitely an on-going theme of Robin's in the RotE books!
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - Nuytsia - Aug-25-2010
Gah looks like I totally misinterpreted that first quote ....... !
I see now. Interesting stuff. I ordered in Assassin's Apprentice from the library again so I will HAVE to do the re-read now
It must be cat mating season or something!!! (although I'm pretty sure it's not....) The other evening I was at an appointment and there was this yoooooowl from just outside the window! It WAS really distracting.... I was going to say geees if MY cat made that noise I'd take it to the vet! But then again I forget what a huge noise the unneutered tom cats can make ....
Hmm true about the names, there ARE several examples of people/dragons going by names other than their 'birth name' or 'real name' ........
RE: Small, random questions about RotE that still bother you - 'thul - Aug-25-2010
That part about cats makes the 'thul think of a quote that would surely be very popular with the Others...
"The only good cat is a stir-fried cat"
These beings do not mean this themselves, but they do still like the quote.