[split] Memories/Forging (spoilers all books incl RWC)

[Farseer]

A couple of things have made me think that there may well have been a major falling out between dragons and elderlings before the cataclysm, so Forge may well have been the source of the iron, and the elderlings themselves may have imprisoned SWR.
Farseer's mention of the possible elderling city nearby Forge seems less and less of a coincedence to me!
I will post more on that in the appropriate thread......

I raised this in the "Mythical Creatures" thread but it probably belongs here too.
Who imprisoned She Who Remembers?
If it was the Others then they must have been thriving before the dragons departed in order to be there waiting when SWR hatched. Moreover, they must have been capable of working iron and stone in order to manufacture the cage in which SWR was imprisoned. It seems more likely to me that SWR was imprisoned by humans (or at least with human help) and then adopted by the Others as their oracle. It may even be that the Others only developed sentience after they gained access to SWR's memories.

This raises the question; what kind of memories (if any) do Others inherit? Do they inherit serpent memories, elderling memories or a mixture of both? If they inherit elderling memories then perhaps they would have had the ability to manufacture a cage from scratch (although I imagine that they would have needed to trade with humans for iron and tools or perhaps salvage them from the beach).

Will go back through the other posts soon (have to head off somewhere...darn it!!) but 'iron' jumped out at me, and made me think of the iron works at Forge. Weren't Skill pillars, memory stone and humps in the earth (which pointed to a buried Elderling city) also found in the vicinity of Forge? Hmmm!

Yes, there is a strong possibility that humans or even Elderlings sought to destroy dragons or extinguish their presence from the world by deleting the serpents and their source of memories. Elderlings (and humans) were also certainly intrigued by the future, and capturing SWR and drinking of the waters she lived in was a sure-fire way to learn the future...as the Others actually did.

Still, with the loss of dragons came the loss of Elderlings and so I'm not sure why an Elderling would wish to destroy serpents and therefore dragons and capture SWR if that meant that they, too, would eventually die out.

Of course, capturing SWR, keeping serpents without their memories, taking away a serpent's ability to make it to its cocooning grounds, along with destroying significant areas such as the cocooning grounds, the Rain River and Elderling cities along the way, could help achieve the goal of destroying both groups. A human or other being may wish to be rid of them and these areas of destruction would all contribute well to their extinction?

The same could be said of a White Prophet. Leaving the serpents without their source of memories or the ability to reach the cocooning grounds to become dragons who then reproduce, which then also in turn assist the creation of Elderlings, well, it would fit well with the plans of at least one WP we know! Ridding the realm of the opposing WP's Catalyst and the family line where the Skill is strongest is another step in the right direction for total removal of all serpent, dragon and Elder-kind. All of this, and the destruction of the dragons yet to emerge from their wizardwood cases eg Tintaglia etc could easily be accomplished via a cataclysm that included floods, volcanic activity and earthquakes.

Whatever the cause, there had to have been conflict somewhere, sometime and this is evidenced from the presence of the simulacra dragon that Althea saw on the Barrens...the one that had been killed with a wizardwood arrow in the same way that Kebal Rawbread's dragon had been destroyed. If nothing else, this points to prior conflict...probably back in the time of the Old Empire?

[Farseer]

Sorry for back-to-back posts...I am the worst, repeat offender here!

I've just had a thought that the serpents losing their memories is not unlike the loss of human memories etc during the Forging process that was instigated by the Pale Woman. At the end of SOM, Shreeva, Maulkin and Sessurea are talking about the ongoing and gradual loss of their memories and actions of the white serpent (Carrion, I think?). Maulkin explains to the other two that there is nothing wrong with the white serpent except that he is further along the path than they are, in that "he has forgotten...Everything...Everything except feeding and shedding and growing. All else, all that is real and significant, he has forgotten." Sounds very much like what is taken away and left behind when a human is Forged?

Ensuring a lack of memories has the same goal of destruction of a race, in my opinion, no matter if the memories are kept from a being (such as the serpents and subsequently the emerging dragons) or taken from a being (eg Forged from a human).

[FoolishGirl]

Sorry for back-to-back posts...I am the worst, repeat offender here!

I've just had a thought that the serpents losing their memories is not unlike the loss of human memories etc during the Forging process that was instigated by the Pale Woman.

Hi Farseer! I'm not sure I would say that Forging is strictly " loss of memories". It seemed to me to be more like losing their souls or maybe their emotions. Seemed like I remember a description by Chade that Forged Ones know their family members (i.e., remember them) but lack any feeling for them. Although why you would not be able Wit sense a person who lost their memories OR their soul, I have no idea!

[Farseer]

Yes, that's absolutely true, FoolishGirl. Forging isn't strictly a loss of memories in that it takes so much more than memories, reducing a human to basic animal instinct...even less than an animal. I think this is explained quite a lot throughout the books but could it be said that this loss of soul (depending on our different interpretations here of 'soul' ), or humanity, is seated in our memories? Certainly, our memories make us who we are and they are what connects us to others and all things within our lives? Thus a loss of memories ensures a loss of our connections to all of the what, who, where, when, how and why that we once knew?

Like how the white serpent and a number of other serpents in the LST had forgotten and had thus reduced themselves to 'animals' (such as the serpent who died in the Rain River when Tintaglia attempted to help her but the serpent struggled, not remembering that it was the task of a One Who Remembers to assist with the effort of making it upstream), Forged Ones seem to forget everything but the basic needs, fighting over food and items without thought to the one they are fighting with or taking from? They've lost their memories, their connections and all that is entangled within these.

Memories and connections create unity whereas a loss of memories and connections create division? In fact, as an aside, it is this very loss of memories or 'self' that is the most dangerous aspect of the Skill and even the Wit, I believe...one who dapples in these magics is only safe when they are able to retain or grasp some memory and therefore 'come back to themselves'.

Seems to be a parallel there to me (?) but most likely I am clutching at straws again...I am rather skilled at that! Still, if I wanted to rule the world, ridding everything of its memories (be it emotional, geographical, life cycle, practical etc), and subsequently all connections, would be a good place to start. Except then along would come two such as Beloved and Changer who would work together to re-create the memories and/or connections and overturn the divisive forces to ensure unity in the realm once more.

Lots more to add when time (and less interrupting tasks!) allows for some clearer thinking...I am having thoughts that I'd like to contradict myself and we can't have that!

['thul]

The forged ones have not lost their memories... They have them. They have lost their connections to the world... Big difference...

[FoolishGirl]

Hi Farseer. Lots to chew on here. I will need to re-read your post before I can make a real reply. One thought occurs to me at the moment: Dragon/serpent memory is so different from human memory, it's hard to compare the two. I'm sure that dragons would find it presumptive that we tiny, insignificant beings even attempt such a thing!

Also, now we know what to look for when Farseer goes to take over the world!

[danieladamsmith]

The forged ones have not lost their memories... They have them. They have lost their connections to the world... Big difference...

Aren't memories the way we connect to the world?

['thul]

No. The Forged ones have lost all use for their memories beyond getting what they need right then and there, yet they do remember other things.

Memories are used to interact with and interpret the world... Forged ones merely act in the world, without any specific understanding of what they do.

[danieladamsmith]

The forged ones have not lost their memories... They have them. They have lost their connections to the world... Big difference...

No. The Forged ones have lost all use for their memories beyond getting what they need right then and there, yet they do remember other things.

Memories are used to interact with and interpret the world... Forged ones merely act in the world, without any specific understanding of what they do.

Thul, I guess I misinterpeted this, but I assummed that the forged got that way because their memories were fed into the stone dragon,no?

['thul]

their memories weren't taken... their feelings, their wit connections and all such was taken...