Random questions about Liveships (spoilers Farseer, LST and TM)

[Omie]

Some of these questions are incredibly stupid, I know. But I'm the kind of person who fixates on daft things. Also, I think these questions are fairly unanswerable to all but the Word of Hobb so I'm only asking for idle fan speculation.

Spoilers, possibly!

- What would happen if a Liveship that identified most strongly as one sex was given a figurehead carved in the likeness of the other? I'm picturing a beautiful busty creation in wizardwood talking in a deep grufty voice.

- Could two Liveships fall in love? Aww.

- Regarding wizardwood: could the contraceptive piercings introduced in the Liveship Traders series 'talk'? Because I can't think of a better mode of contraception than a person's belly button suddenly shouting 'Knock that off, you two!'

- How would a Liveship feel to one with the Wit sense? It might have said this somewhere in the books but I can't remember.

- Although Amber never poured herself into the Paragon the way the Fool did to Girl-On-A-Dragon, she must have left him with quite an imprint. Would the Paragon have felt his old friend slip away when the Fool died?

[assasin]

Most you questions probaby don't actually have answers. But to take a rough GUESS.

- I doubt this is possible.


- Probably. They do have real emotions. But I think they'd still feel a greater connecto to their familes.

- no, its not stated anywhere. Though I guess it might be to communicate with the skill or something I doubt it would be more than taking in memeories.

- the old blood is not mentioned anywhere near live ships. I doubt it becuase the ships arnt technically alive.

- the ship/family connection does seem like a skillbond. I doubt it though. The fool isnt a powerful skill user and the ships do seem to have a very limited communication range. Plus they arnt of the same family.

['thul]

Contraceptive charms are fairly tiny, and are not equipped with a "mouth". Thus they are incapable of speech. The concentration of wood is too small to be able to do much beyond what they were designed to do.

[redchild]

I don't think people pass on their contraceptive charms (eww) like liveships are passed down the generations.

Actually your first question is a legitimate one. How do the carvers know to carve a male or female? For example: what if a female cocoon were carved into a male figurehead?

['thul]

Most likely, they do not.

[Farseer]

Some of these questions are incredibly stupid, I know.

From reading your three posts thus far, Omie, I doubt anything you contributed could be labeled ‘stupid’! Thought-provoking, yes...stupid, no.

But I'm the kind of person who fixates on daft things.

I, too, could be accused of this…

Also, I think these questions are fairly unanswerable to all but the Word of Hobb so I'm only asking for idle fan speculation.

Oh, let me assure you, we HAVE all the answers…it's only the accuracy that could be called into question!

- What would happen if a Liveship that identified most strongly as one sex was given a figurehead carved in the likeness of the other? I'm picturing a beautiful busty creation in wizardwood talking in a deep grufty voice.

Possibly the wood 'tells' or 'suggests' the carver what gender it is to be?

The person who carves it could also be a factor. It is hard to say, not knowing the background of all those who are able to carve wizardwood. As it seems likely that those who carve charms of wizardwood must also be hedge-witches (to key each charm to its user), possibly such magic also allows the carver to call forward whatever gender form the wood should naturally take. At times, it was said of Amber and Fool that the objects they carved could not have been anything else eg a certain piece of wood could not have been anything other than a dolphin, and that was the case just with ‘normal’ wood. How more so would it be with wizardwood? Of course, this would then mean that the carver would most likely choose to carve the figurehead into a dragon form rather than that of a human! Hmm... !!

Still, even if the carver were not a hedge-witch, the wood could still, by virtue of its dragon memories, hint or somehow kind of 'Skill-suggest' to the carver what gender it would have been if it were to have emerged as a dragon as it was meant to? My, there's lots to think about...and I have nothing better to offer at the moment! EDIT: What was I saying about having the answers??

Could two Liveships fall in love? Aww.

As they are fully capable of experiencing the entire spectrum of emotions, I don’t see why not. Love, or even feelings of physical attraction, could stem from either the dragon or the human anmas within the wizardwood. Given that Vivacia and Kennit, and also Bolt and Kennit, were able to share a courtship-like relationship (despite Kennit being more deceitful than loving, due to his hidden agenda!), it is highly likely that liveships could experience feelings of love for each other also.

An underlying theme of the books is that love transcends gender, species, form, time, geography etc so this could also apply to liveships. If they can feel love for beings other than liveships, they could certainly experience the same for one of their own?

Regarding wizardwood: could the contraceptive piercings introduced in the Liveship Traders series 'talk'?

I had the same question and there is a bit of a discussion on this in the Elderling Creations Theory thread.

How would a Liveship feel to one with the Wit sense? It might have said this somewhere in the books but I can't remember.

the old blood is not mentioned anywhere near live ships. I doubt it becuase the ships arnt technically alive.

Actually, Old Blood has ventured into the vicinity of a liveship. Fitz himself, in company with Nighteyes, saw a liveship within Bingtown Harbour during their journey south after the Red Ships War. All that we hear of the experience is that he and Nighteyes considered it a grim magic and it was not one Fitz would ever be comfortable around.

As for liveships not being alive, the simulacra dragons in the Stone Garden were also not technically alive, and yet Fitz and Nighteyes sensed life within them via the Wit?

Although Amber never poured herself into the Paragon the way the Fool did to Girl-On-A-Dragon, she must have left him with quite an imprint. Would the Paragon have felt his old friend slip away when the Fool died?

Hmm…that, too, is an interesting question! I have a niggly doubt that it could be so but it is a possibility, given that Amber had touched Paragon with her ungloved, Skill-imbued fingers (in the same way that she had touched Malta, and Fool had previously touched Fitz – see the Malta thread for more thoughts).

Touching Paragon with her fingers certainly heightened their shared awareness and bond, as did their close relationship as it progressed, but... ...I look forward to my re-read of LST all the more, with yet another thing to keep a look out for! Any Skill-link between Amber and Paragon would most likely be far greater than one possibly shared with Malta but less than the one shared with Fitz? Despite Amber being in close physical proximity to Paragon, particularly when she went ungloved during the lengthy re-carving of Paragon's face phase, Paragon took great care to separate them both to allow Amber to keep her privacy and also so he could keep his/Kennit's secrets safe.

While Fitz did not experience the ‘bubble popping’ sensation of Fool’s death, it would most likely be due to having lost his Skill after eating the elfbark-laden cake. If his Skill had been ‘intact’ or functioning properly at the time, no doubt Fitz would have been fully aware of not only Fool’s death but also the torture that preceded it (in the same way that Fitz became aware of Amber’s difficulty when she fainted aboard Paragon). In a way, Fitz losing his Skill at that time proved to be somewhat of a blessing and it's hard to think that poor Paragon would had to have been witness to all that!

EDIT: I have added a spoiler tag to the thread title.

[Omie]

For example: what if a female cocoon were carved into a male figurehead?

'I was to be the most beautiful queen of all the land, sea and skies and you've gone and given me a beard like a thicket!'

Actually, I suspect all humans look the same to dragons, male or female. So the awakened serpents in the liveships probably wouldn't give a toss. Perhaps, also, the voice of the liveship as well as some of the personality comes partly from the expectations of the human owners. So female looking liveships would always become 'female' and male ones 'male', despite technically being neither any more.

Hmm, I'm answering my own questions.

[Farseer]

For example: what if a female cocoon were carved into a male figurehead?

'I was to be the most beautiful queen of all the land, sea and skies and you've gone and given me a beard like a thicket!'

[Nuytsia]

Hi Omie!

- What would happen if a Liveship that identified most strongly as one sex was given a figurehead carved in the likeness of the other? I'm picturing a beautiful busty creation in wizardwood talking in a deep grufty voice.

I think the points Farseer raised make sense on this one. I wonder if the gender isn't really set in stone until the carver decides? I got the impression that it was really more the memories of the humans (and dragon/s if applicable) that went into the ships, not their personalities?
(I may be wrong, dodgy memory alert!!! And I AM technically in the middle of re-reading the LST, but not up to the part featuring the LS's yet)

- Regarding wizardwood: could the contraceptive piercings introduced in the Liveship Traders series 'talk'? Because I can't think of a better mode of contraception than a person's belly button suddenly shouting 'Knock that off, you two!'

heheheheeheeeee

- How would a Liveship feel to one with the Wit sense? It might have said this somewhere in the books but I can't remember.

I can't remember any other references than the one Farseer mentioned. It makes sense that the Liveships would make those with the Wit uneasy, if they could sense the 'trapped' or latent dragon inside (if there is one, depending on the ship). I guess it would be kind of creepy!

As for liveships not being alive, the simulacra dragons in the Stone Garden were also not technically alive, and yet Fitz and Nighteyes sensed life within them via the Wit?

ok I'm off topic, but just wanted to mention I still can't get my head around this !

While Fitz did not experience the ‘bubble popping’ sensation of Fool’s death, it would most likely be due to having lost his Skill after eating the elfbark-laden cake. If his Skill had been ‘intact’ or functioning properly at the time, no doubt Fitz would have been fully aware of not only Fool’s death but also the torture that preceded it (in the same way that Fitz became aware of Amber’s difficulty when she fainted aboard Paragon). In a way, Fitz losing his Skill at that time proved to be somewhat of a blessing and it's hard to think that poor Paragon would had to have been witness to all that!

Hmmm I never really thought about that before! Do you think the Fool somehow had something to do with Fitz eating the cake?????? oh what a tangled web.....

[NeverBeenWise]

Hmmm I never really thought about that before! Do you think the Fool somehow had something to do with Fitz eating the cake?????? oh what a tangled web.....

My goodness, Nuytsia, what an intriguing question--and one I cannot investigate at the moment because my books are in the hands of another person who I am converting into a Hobb fan! Grrr...it is certainly possible. I shall have to reread Fool's Fate as soon as I can.

Actually, regarding the Liveships and the Old Blood, I think Witted ones would find the ships deeply unsettling. Maybe, if they boarded them, even painful, because the dragon/s in the "wood" would sense the Wit and possibly reach towards it. The captain might have to put the member of the Old Blood on a different vessel because of the ship's reaction and discomfort. (I forget whether it was Althea or Brashen who kindly asked Alise to stop speaking to Paragon because she was upsetting him with talk of dragons.)

Continuing in that vein, what about Skilled ones? The level at which someone could understand dragons and liveships might have to do with the raw strength of their Skill abilities. Oh, what I wouldn't give to see a scene between Fitz and Paragon. I think that would be QUITE intriguing, to say the least; we'd get to see how the ship reacts to both the Skill and the Wit, how Fitz reacts to two dragons inside a ship as well as the personality of Paragon himself, and there would inevitably be a discussion of Amber/the Fool (which you might realize is all I care about! ) somewhere in there. And then there'd be the "hey wait the Six Duchies dude looks kinda like an older version of the ship and has the eyes Amber said Paragon should have WHUT HUUUH???" thing going on from the crew as a sort of comic relief...or drama/tension, depending on how it played out.

I can just imagine how effective the contraceptive charms would be if they yelled at people! Alas, however, that is probably not the case, as Etta and Althea apparently were never interrupted so rudely. It might happen if enough attention had been paid to said charms, but I doubt mothers would pass their own on to their daughters unless the family was very open about such things, which probably would never happen in Bingtown. *sigh* But it would be entertaining to see nonetheless!

Mkay. Sorry about the lack of organization in that 'un. Very interesting ideas, Omie and Nuytsia!