*spoilers all books* Dragon Haven, Enjoy it? Hate it?

['thul]

there is another book in the works for the rain wild chronicles... Dragon keeper and Dragon haven were originally one book, but was too long to publish practically as a single book, and was therefore chopped in half. The next book is close to, or has recently, been send to the editor for the final stuff before release, and is expected to be released sometime around 2012... (far too long in 'thul's 'want it now' mind, but 'thul prefer getting a good book, so they can wait.)

[Farseer]

Your post was very insightful redchild

Yes, redchild is that...VERY insightful!

i love discussing Hobb's books with other fans,

Me too! I only wish I had more time to drown myself in all of the posts at the moment, rather than splash around superficially...I think it's like Nuytsia once said, "It can be like a full-time occupation"! It's so good to have you here to throw your thoughts into the mix, Lady Laura!!

Onto your comments- do you mean that DH is not really the end, cos there will be a book after that? I still feel that doesnt justify the book being anti-climatic

'thul has the answer re the next book well covered but I'd like to add that DK and DH are just one part of the 'whole'. I don't segment the series into books in my mind...I only do that for the sake of letting people know when and where during a discussion. For me, though I can see exactly what you are saying, and even though DK and DH are considered as one 'book' for the sake of being released to the public, really it is just a chapter or a portion of a certain proportion...another little window into the stream of time that we have been invited by RH (or El/Eda/Sa etc! ) to witness and what's more, will prove to be the calm, the suspension, leading up to the finale.

It is impossible to say more without spoiling the Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies for anyone but even readers who have read every book still felt let down by the RWC. Yes, for me, it wasn't the most thrilling of all of the thrilling adventure aspects of the whole tale, but, a lot like each of the RotE-related short stories, it added more to the whole that we have been feeding on in the trilogies...it filled out some of the things we had known before, but through the eyes of different characters, and it gave us a snap-shot of what may have happened in the past while pointing us toward one of the possible futures (though offering us thousands!).

I liken it most to the short story 'Homecoming', which you will all get to read in 'The Inheritance' if you haven't already. It didn't pack a punch by way of a scorchingly brilliant short story but it was still an incredible tale because it made me think, sift through the riddles, both hidden and exposed, and connect to things that had gone on before. It too was set in the Rain Wilds and, like many a short story, could be said to be anti-climactic in a similar way many have found the RWC to be.

Here was where it was always going to be tricky…that moment where RH had to begin drawing in and blending all of those different threads and aspects of the realm to lead us to her conclusion. There is no way, in my mind at least, that the Realm of the Elderlings story can come to full conclusion until all of those elements can meet (or explode!) together in the middle. The story will have to end up like our posts…all characters and happenings all drawn in to the same space. No matter how we try to keep them separate, they gravitate back into each other, and that’s because the future of the Rain Wilds, the future of Bingtown, or the future of any other destination we have been taken to on our travels and beyond, is one and the same…it’s the future of the world that they share, just like they shared its past.

Though we knew throughout the RWC that it was always going to happen, that Kelsingra was always going to be the destination of the Tarman expedition, the actual reaching and “discovery” of Kelsingra was HUGE in the whole scheme of the tale, and it suddenly made things “real”. Kelsingra, if one looks carefully enough, has already well hinted that the various aspects of the realm are soon set to collide. Different ones have missed each other by moments, days, years…but soon, soon they will assemble in the same space (again, at least that’s my thinking!).

It could also be likened to a soapie. Those shows go on and on and on (like true history and the passage of time) but one day you turn on the television and sit down to watch. It was interesting and you connected with some of the characters, despite not being satisfied with how it ended and despite not knowing fully what had taken place to lead up to those events that you had just witnessed. Not knowing it was just one episode of a soapie, you also thought it fell well short of the mark of a movie. You then discover that it was just one installment. Should you decide to sit down again tomorrow for the next installment, you will learn more. Should you decide to purchase the DVDs from the last season’s viewing, you will gain an even greater understanding of what’s taking place. The only difference here is that we have to wait a little longer for the next episode.

Anyhow, I know I go on about this here, there and everywhere, but that’s only my take on it (though a nice little way for me to tease and excite myself about what's to come!!). RH is serving us up a feast of a tale…the trilogies are like the three main parts of the meal, the short stories are like the nuts and little chocolates, and the RWC is like small pieces of quiche in varying proportions. The feast isn’t finished and who knows what’s to come?

Here’s hoping it’s a changing time of Apricot Brandy with a BANG!

I want there to be more females who don't need a man in their lives, mayb I'm not very good at explaining this, sorry!

I think you do a fantastic job of explaining yourself! More to add on this female issue and all else later, especially as in-depth responses like that require time for thought from ones like me, and I’m, oh, only two plus hours late starting school today!!!

EDIT: Just discovered that there's a limit of ten images per post, so I just had to delete four - aawww!!

[Lady Laura]

I love long posts I dont have much time to say everything i want atm, but i just want to clarify that I knew about that RWC was meant to be 1 book, but was split into 2. sorry my post made it seem like I was asking if there'd be another book, I knew there would be, I was asking more about the fact that if there's another book, is that why you think DH is not anti-climatic as such. Sorry i cant explain that better atm, hope i make sense!

But thanks for your responses! I suppose I should really wait for the next RW book til I judge DK & DH too harshly in terms of its conclusion...

[Nuytsia]

Onto your comments- do you mean that DH is not really the end, cos there will be a book after that? I still feel that doesnt justify the book being anti-climatic

Fair comment! I think we all just wanted to check you knew there would be another book, but that doesn't mean each book shouldn't have a logical end-point.

But I was surprised at Tats, I hadnt expected him to be so puhy with Tymara... but I admired her for sticking to her own beliefs

I know! Hobb does seem to love putting flaws in her characters, not to mention playing with our emotions! In a good way!
I think it was one of the things I loved about Thymara, that although she questions things, she isn't one to be easily swayed by others' opinions.

Maybe it's my crazy feminist mind here, but it annoys me in books that practically every main female character needs to fall in love, in order to develope and become fully confident. Why should they need to wait for a man to come along? I know thats a bit of an exaggeration in relation to these books, but I get very sceptical in books when it comes to the portrayal of female characters falling in love. I want there to be more females who don't need a man in their lives, maybe

I know what you mean, and I feel a bit like this about Hobb's books, but in relation to both female and male characters! I feel like everyone needs to be paired off, and preferably with offspring ...... woops I was going to give some specific examples but that would be spoilers for other books!

Ok, I get your point about Leftrin hating Alise would be a cliche! I think I am being sceptical again, this time of the notion of "love at first sight". But it felt a bit silly to me, or maybe I was just annoyed by it! But that's only my personal feelings, I can fully understand how other fans will disagree with me Different opinions are what makes these discussions so much fun

Love at first sight romances always feel silly to me in books, as I've never experienced it in real life! I can only understand it in terms of it was an immediate physical attraction, which happily turned out to be followed by actual compatibility. I'm sure it can happen!

[Lady Laura]

Yes, Hobbs truly excells in giving her characters flaws And so I'm rarely in a positon where I love a character completely, I usually see good & bads points with each character.

If I can use this in relation to Sedric, I dont think I ever hated him fully, even at the end of DK when we see him taking blood from the dragon Relpha (sorry if i got her name wrong!). I was horrified and angry at him, but I understood his logic behind his actions, and that he truly beleived he was doing it for a greater good (although this greater good was for selfish purposes, ie. him and Hest living happily and rich). But it was so very human of him, to do something terrible because he justified it in his mind that the end result would be worth it. I mostly felt extremely sorry for him throughout DK and DH, rather than "hate" him. But I did feel very angry at him at times, and wanted to scream at him that Hest was a *astard who wasn't worth so much effort

With the idea of most main characters in Hobb's books ending up with a partner by the end, I agree that;s something that occurs in a lot of books I think a lot of ppl believe that the ultimately satisfying conclusion to a character's life (and perhaps for real life ppl too) is for them to meet the man/woman of their dreams, maybe marry, and have kids It does get annoying how this "formula" crops up in a lot of books, it can get rather tiresome.

the phrase "love at first sight" should be changed to "lust at first sight" in my opinion, because initially on your first sight of someone, you are more likely to feel purely physical attraction for them, rather than to fall in love lol But I definately agree that that feeling of initial lust can turn into love, as the 2 ppl get to know each other better.

[Farseer]

I love long posts

I did go on a fraction (sorry , I'm a little like a character you will soon meet, who tends to charge in, dump his stuff and leave!) but my post was probably more for the benefit of other lurkers who are unsure where it all fits. I'd hate for someone to be overly disappointed with the RWC and therefore not pick up another RH book, especially if they hadn't read LST.

I knew there would be, I was asking more about the fact that if there's another book, is that why you think DH is not anti-climatic as such. Sorry i cant explain that better atm, hope i make sense!

But thanks for your responses! I suppose I should really wait for the next RW book til I judge DK & DH too harshly in terms of its conclusion...

You make sense so thanks for clarifying. :happy balloon: To your question, I would answer, yes, I was able to ignore any feeling of anti-climax because of my expectation of what was to come.

Still, I know that's not fair and each book, if it's in a series or not, part of a whole or not, written by a favourite author or not, should be able to withstand being judged on its own worth (harshly or otherwise!). Though I probably came across like a bear protecting her cub , your comments are valid and mirrored by many. Judge on...

I have really enjoyed your thoughts on Sedric, Lady Laura, as he was one of my least favourite characters from the RWC. My opinion hasn't changed but your comments have made me see him from a different, more understanding perspective...especially when you pointed out that his decisions were just "so very human".

But it was so very human of him, to do something terrible because he justified it in his mind that the end result would be worth it

It's difficult to disparage a fellow human for simply being human but, being human, no doubt I will continue to do so!

I can't say that I truly connected with anyone in DK or DH (I'll have to go back to previous posts to see if this is a contradiction of myself!). I really admired Rapscal though, for all of his loyalty and perseverance, and Tarman for his vision, strong will and quiet belief in himself.

Hmm...yes, I also considered the Tats we knew at the end to be a disappointing exchange for the Tats we were introduced to in the beginning. I wasn't a huge fan of Thymara's at any stage, but was also glad to see her rewarded for remaining true to herself right through to the end.

As for the woman needing a partner thing, I still have more to say but wanted to share this little 'something' that made me go . I was speaking with a group of girls and young women very recently, concerning the empowering of women to change the world (I think 'thul beings will know why but I don't want to share too much in this forum). I invited them to an afternoon tea and, in the end, told them that they couldn't eat any of the food because they were female, even though they had all paid the same $2 to eat. We then discussed how this fit on a world scale (a female's right to food and clean water, an education, employment etc) and their subsequent feelings and reactions to not being given a fair share due to their gender.

From there, I went on to chat with them about the far-reaching benefits of them, as females, having the opportunity to an education and what they'd like to do as far as making a career . Again, I asked them how they would feel if I told them that they could never have those jobs, nor get that education, just because they were female. Nearly all of the girls got angry and jumped on the "It's not fair!" bandwagon immediately but one girl, who is around nine, told me that she would just find herself a man so that he could provide for her, a nice house, a nice car etc, and that way she wouldn't have to worry about which job she could or couldn't do, or anything at all.

In this, I suppose we are all different, and seek/require different things for ourselves. Some, even from a very young age, do dream of nothing more than a partner, a home and children, while others could just never accept that as satisfying (at least until they have done something else first)...all very interesting!

['thul]

These beings have one thing they realized sometime around last reread of Dragon Haven...

Did any of you ponder how quickly after his being "disinherited" by Kalo, he died? Or would have, from the changes he was going through? (had no gallator envenomed him, that is...)

These beings theorize that those changes were no random happening, but rather intentional changes by a certain blue-black dragon that no longer liked its keeper...

Dragons can, if they want, control any and all aspects of the keeper's transformations... It would not be particularly hard for a dragon to "accidentally" make the tear ducts seal up, but not finish dragonizing the eyes... or for that matter to start the jaw reshaping in the most painful manners...


Do you think that theory holds water?

[Nightchade]

I’ve recently finished DH. I did enjoy the books but wonder how much of my enjoyment was due to the enhancement of the other books set in the Realm of the Ederlings . Its hard not to compare with the earlier books and find the RW wanting in terms of complexity and poetry and I cant see me revisiting them and gaining further insights through re-reading in the same way as the others. However I would still like to read more about the RW and the characters. I could see Rapskals character developing into something much more complex and would love to see Hest’s reaction to Sedrics relationship with Carson for example!
Overall, I liked the way the same sex relationships were developed (although still found myself fantasising as to whether this might be a kind of 'practice run' for depicting the Fool and Fitz to get together in a 'last dance of romances'! ..groan..sorry I just love those little dancers and wanted to fit them in..) -as I’ve said elsewhere it is good that an author is doing this and would hope that in a future book she might explore women’s possible intimate relationships with each other –again to reflect life more accurately. I have hopes for Thymara although it was also good to see a character like her not defining herself in terms of a relationship.

Beware-spoilers for TM

I couldn’t help trying to link the events with those in TM as I imagine the events are taking place towards the end of that series given Tintaglia’s departure to be with her new mate. I assumed Kelsingra was the same city found by Fitz and look forward to a scene where the Fools Elderling tent is seen! (although I think I would cry).

Theories: which I want to be true…. (someone may have said this elsewhere but I haven’t read anything so far )

i) I can’t help but think that the dragon recalled flying around a volcano was Icefyre? The name seems to fit, his fascination with fire and ice, and I can’t remember if it was ever explained how Icefyre came to be imprisoned in the glacier. Could that be how he was imprisoned or would he have had to have been consumed by another dragon for that memory to have survived? I don’t have the DH book to hand but seem to recall the memory was the knowledge of another dragon who had witnessed or knew the story.
ii) Also, the great flood. I wonder if the explosion that freed Icefyre was what ultimately resulted in the flood ? It is commented that such floods could be caused by events happening a long way away and some time before. (I think this comment has to mean something) Aslevjal isn’t depicted on any map but an Iceberg calving on some distant shore does effect the tides I believe?

Sorry if I’m repeating old news here, but I’d love to hear what people think.

(edited to try and hide spoilers -but it didn't work!)

[Lady Laura]

Its great to have your views on the RWC! I havn't read Farseer or TW... is Icefyre Tintaglia's mate? I can't realyl comment on your theories until I've read F & TM!

But I'm also looking forward to Hest meeting with Alise & Sedric again, hopefully that'll happen in the next book. To be honest, I'm sort of presuming that Hobb is going to bring the Fool and Fitz back into the next book (if that is the last book in the RotE series). It seems fitting from what I've heard about Fitzy and the Fool having visited Kelsingra before, that they could return there again, and end up meeting the characters from the RWC books. But it all depends if Hobb wants to bring Fitz & Fool back into the series... it does seem fitting though! It would certainly tie the books up even more.

I'd like to hear the views of people who've read Farseer and Tawny, if they think Hobb will bring Fitz and the Fool back

[Nightchade]

Oh dear ! have I put spoilers in ? Sorry.I'll have to learn how to do the spoiler thingy-my enthusiasm to link all of the books together gets me carried away. Lady Laura you must read the others soon!

I live in hope that at least the Fool will put in an appearance in future but I cant see this happening in the RW series somehow and for one I'm not sure I would want it to. I dont think the style of writing would bring out the Fool's personality well, he would be a shadow of his former self...and steal every scene methinks. I'm just looking for little hints that he might have passed through....