*spoilers all books* Dragon Haven, Enjoy it? Hate it?

[Lady Laura]

Overall i really enjoyed the Rain Wilds Chronicles, and had many wonderful hours reading them

Unfortnately a few things did bring the books down for me a bit- the ending was anti-climatic. I admit I was delighted for the characters to have reached Kelsingra, but it seemed to end rather abruptly. I was really happy that Heeby and Rapskal returned- it was a bit cheesy really, in ways, but I still couldn't help but grin when he turned up again.

As it was mentioned before, apart from the flood, there wasn't really any major setback to their journey. But in some ways I like how the books had more of a focus on the inter-relationships more than the "action". Everyone's probably noticed this, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway- the way Sedric disdains Leftrin, for being unkept and uncouth, and judges Alise harshly for her bad standards. Then he himself developes feelings for Carson, and learns to overlook the very same qualities that had previously revolted him. It was interesting how his priorities turned around like that, and how he grew to see that Carson was a far superior man than Hest ever was.

I dont know if anyone else felt this... but here goes. I grew attatched to Alise from the start of DK. But as soon as she started having feelings for Leftrin, I felt like inwardly groaning. And from then on, I didn't like her character as much anymore, and tended to be critical of her. I just knew that they wouldn't properly get together til a good way through the second book, maybe that annoyed me lol Cos I was just waiting for it to happen. Somebody mentioned somewhere that it was unrealistic for Leftrin to fall in love with her on first sight. I agree, I would have preferred if he had perhaps disliked her at first, and then he grew to admire her as the story went on. As it was, it was just too fast, and it irritated me to be honest

I really welcomed how Hobb explored the gay subplots in this series. I am actually surprised she hasn't had any gay characters in her books before this (as far as I know! I havn't read Tawny or Farseer, but a friend hinted that there wern't any main gay characters in them). So it's about time Hobb dealt with this! I'm not saying she needed to add in a couple gays just for the sake of it, but isn't it more realistic for there to be some characters of varying sexuality?

Before I read RWC, i had heard that Hobb portrayed her gay characters as stereotypical, and I read a few critical reviews. But I dont agree really. Take Hest- yes, he can be seen as the typical violent, cruel/sadistic dominant persona that some people might associate with gays. But in the context of the book, its more like he's a terrible person, who happens to also be gay. It's not as if being gay caused him to be a bad person! Even if he had been straight, I'm sure he'd have been very similar in character, because of his innate personality and upbringing.

Sedric could be seen as the typical weak/submissive gay persona. But circumstances have resulted in him being overly dependant on Hest. He put up with so much, because he was terrified of Hest "dumping" him, and he needed to avoid that at all costs. With Hest, he had the security of a well paid job and home, he didn't want to have to give all that up. And Sedric truly developes and grows stronger in DH, he accepts that Hest was bad for him, and that he needs a new start.

Ok, I keep writing long posts LOL But I just wanted to pose a question- why exactly did Carson take such a liking to Sedric? From Carson's POV, wouldn't he have seen Sedric as a dandy, perhaps selfish, vain, proud, etc...? I'm sure that's the impression many of the crew had. I've heard it suggested that he liked Sedric at first for his looks, but I don't really share that belief. I think Carson's not that shallow (I THINK ).

And... how did Carson figure out Sedric was gay?! I presumed that it was just a "gay vibe" sort of thing But he seemed very sure when he first spoke to Sedric about it (or made the insinuation.)

['thul]

These beings (the ones known as 'thul) believe that the way he noticed it was the same way it is obvious how some human sexual leanings are. You cant put it down to one thing, but you can easily see it. As for why? Who knows? Maybe a challenge to teach him such?

Sedric had essentially led a very sheltered life. With no exposure to the world, he had no such strength and as you said, relied fully on Hest.

As for why RH has not included such characters before, perhaps it was considered still too much of a Taboo? things were much different back in '95-'97... Even expressing hints of homosexuality could be considered too dangerous back then... especially for a fairly new author... (as robin hobb, she was new, even if she'd written as Megan Lindholm before)

As for the attachment, it was similar here, but more focused on Thymara. These beings find that character quite fascinating.

These books did demand much more character development, having essentially got a complete set of new characters (that short appearance of malta at the beginning doesnt count), where previous books had at least one previous character, if not many.

[redchild]

It's called gaydar. Some people have an innately sensitive gaydar, or are honed through their experiences. Others, like poor Alise, are oblivious.

[Lady Laura]

Haha yeah, I did presume Carson's gaydar had something to do with it It was funny how Sedric was so oblivious for a while that Carson knew he was gay, even though Carson hinted heavily at it. Poor Sedric! And Alise... oh god, from when I read the first chapter in DK with Hest and Sedric, I just knew they were together It did annoy me how oblivious Alise was, but then again, she probably knows very little about the possibility of two men in a relationship, and she herself was somewhat sheltered too.

Very good point about Hobb's earlier books not including any gays, I can understand why she would have been cautious back then.

About Thymara, I'm very curious to find out how she deals with Tats in the next book! As well as how she copes with her new wings...

Ok, and I'd like to randomly LOL at the fact that Leftrin and Alise did it on Sedric's bed Talk about blatently defying him!

One more thing I'd like to talk about (please direct me to another thread if I'm going into things too much here!) is about Sedric and Hest. It just strikes me that Hest's seems to be the type of man who gets bored easily, and always wants something new and exciting. But he and Sedric were together a few years... I find it hard to imagine Hest sticking to the same man for that long! Wouldn't he have grown tired Sedric long before he and Alise set out for the Rain Wilds in DH? I know Sedric put up with a lot, more maybe than most men would, but wouldn't Hest have begun wanting more of a challenge pretty soon?

I'm guessing that because Hest had given Sedric a job, (and he apparently was so good and reliable at it) that he felt responsible for him? Also because if he dumped Sedric, and thus fired him, he'd need to come up with a decent excuse as to why he had done so. So Hest was sort of trapped into staying with Sedric, for longer than he would have liked maybe.

I could be thinking into this too much, maybe Hest truly was happy to stick with Sedric for so long, since few men would be as accepting and as easy to dominate as Sedric was. Anyway, I am leading on to my suspicion that Hest was probably having affairs behind Sedric's back... Or I think it's possible that he was unfaithful with Sedric knowing about it, only Sedric would be forced to accept that Hest was "allowed" to behave as such. But I'm not so certain of this theory, because surely if Hest had been having affairs that Sedric knew about, wouldn't he have thought about it angrily in DH? Like when he thinks over all the bad things about Hest, he'd have been sure to remember times when he'd been unfaithful. So if Hest was having affairs with other men, I'm guessing Sedric didn't know.

Let me know if Sedric has his own thread where I can ramble on about him

[Farseer]

Ok, I keep writing long posts LOL

Keep going...I don't have much else to contribute but I know I'm enjoying reading your thoughts!

['thul]

These beings also wonder how thymara will deal with those wings...

[redchild]

Hest has a controlling personality and likes to keep people whom he thinks are weak under his thumb like Sedric and Alise. He prefers to maintain the status quo, both in his business and personal affairs. He is not the type to cause any waves. He knows the larger society is antagonistic towards homosexuals, so he keeps his relationship with Sedric discreet; but not a total secret. He demonstrates a cruel, misogynistic streak by allowing his inner circle of friends to be informed of he and Sedric, but mocks Alise behind her back by keeping her out of it. If he ever had any genuine affection for Sedric, it was probably short-lived and only keeps Sedric around with him as a trophy/pet.

['thul]

That seems like a good description of his character, yes.

[Nuytsia]

Interesting posts Lady Laura!

Unfortnately a few things did bring the books down for me a bit- the ending was anti-climatic.

Well it wasn't really an ending....?

I was really happy that Heeby and Rapskal returned- it was a bit cheesy really, in ways, but I still couldn't help but grin when he turned up again.

Hehe I know!!! me too.

I dont know if anyone else felt this... but here goes. I grew attatched to Alise from the start of DK. But as soon as she started having feelings for Leftrin, I felt like inwardly groaning.

I could never quite identify with Alise.... I felt like there was every reason I should but I just never quite clicked....

As far as changing your attitude to characters, Sedric and Tats were two I liked at first but hated by the end! Well ok, Sedric redeemed himself somewhat but I take a long time to forgive! Maybe in the next book......
Tats I just wanted to punch by the end.

Somebody mentioned somewhere that it was unrealistic for Leftrin to fall in love with her on first sight. I agree, I would have preferred if he had perhaps disliked her at first, and then he grew to admire her as the story went on. As it was, it was just too fast, and it irritated me to be honest

Although I feel like the whole 'hated each other at first then fell in love' is quite a cliche..... so I didn't mind the way they got together.

Before I read RWC, i had heard that Hobb portrayed her gay characters as stereotypical, and I read a few critical reviews.

I didn't find that at all.....
Also, maybe the lack of (known) gay characters in her previous books was just because it's best to 'write what you know' and for all I know she didn't know many gay people very well at that time!
I don't think it would be very successful to just put in gay characters if the author doesn't feel like they have the capacity to write those characters in a realistic way.

why exactly did Carson take such a liking to Sedric? From Carson's POV, wouldn't he have seen Sedric as a dandy, perhaps selfish, vain, proud, etc...? I'm sure that's the impression many of the crew had. I've heard it suggested that he liked Sedric at first for his looks, but I don't really share that belief. I think Carson's not that shallow (I THINK ).

I think he did like him at first for his looks, why not? I think it would have been the same with Leftrin and Alise. I can't think of any other plausible explanation for 'love at first sight'.

[Lady Laura]

Your post was very insightful redchild Thanks for sharing your thoughts, they've helped me understand Hest a bit more! Especially the "keeping Sedric as a pet/trophy" comment, that's so very true, it's exactly what Sedric was to Hest.

Ok, Nuytsia- first let me just say how much i love discussing Hobb's books with other fans, I don't know any other fans of her's in real life, and this is the first proper time I've been able to hear & share views with others.

Onto your comments- do you mean that DH is not really the end, cos there will be a book after that? I still feel that doesnt justify the book being anti-climatic Ok, I thought it was anti-climatic perhaps in the fact that I only see the flood being a massive problem encountered in the journey, so maybe action-wise, it did disappoint me a bit (maybe its my own fault for expecting there to be more action!). But relationship-wise, I dont think it was anti-climatic really, I think the different characters developed very nicely, and displayed their flaws, learned from mistakes, etc... Yet there is room for them to grow even more, which is a realistic thing. So essentially, because I liked most of the relationship issues in DK & DH, I enjoyed watching them resolve themselves to an extent by the end. But my expectations were not exactly met in terms of the action side of things, however I admit that a book does not have to include a lot of action in order for it to be "good"

Oh god, I liked Tats at the start, but by the time he started showing his feelings for Tymara, and got really pushy, I wanted to hit him too! When Bellin gave the girls that scary rant at the end of DH about not having sex, I wish some of the boys could have been present, to witness the pain that girls have to go through as a result of pregnancy/giving birth/mis-carrying. It might give the boys a shock, which I think they need. Not that it would stop them trying to sleep with the girls, though But I was surprised at Tats, I hadnt expected him to be so puhy with Tymara... but I admired her for sticking to her own beliefs

Alise- ok, she reminded me a bit of myself to begin with LOL The more I read though, the more I started to distance myself to her... I think in DK, I kept waiting for some turn around moment when I would fully admire and respect her, but it never really came. Instead, from the time when she meets Leftrin onwards, I just stopped liking her as much. Maybe it's my crazy feminist mind here, but it annoys me in books that practically every main female character needs to fall in love, in order to develope and become fully confident. Why should they need to wait for a man to come along? I know thats a bit of an exaggeration in relation to these books, but I get very sceptical in books when it comes to the portrayal of female characters falling in love. I want there to be more females who don't need a man in their lives, maybe I'm not very good at explaining this, sorry!

Ok, I get your point about Leftrin hating Alise would be a cliche! I think I am being sceptical again, this time of the notion of "love at first sight". But it felt a bit silly to me, or maybe I was just annoyed by it! But that's only my personal feelings, I can fully understand how other fans will disagree with me Different opinions are what makes these discussions so much fun