Others' Island (spoilers all books incl RWC)

[Farseer]

Everything adds to the discussion, Chrischa !

No connection at all from what I can see but this from 'The Judging Eye' by R.Scott Baker - Sranc. Bearing shields of lacquered human leather. Wearing corselets scaled with human fingernails and necklaces of human teeth.

And this, regarding vampires - [i]In European and Slavic history, fingernails were thought to be one of the tell-tale signs that a corpse was a vampire. Vampires were thought to lose their old nails and grow new ones upon their entry to the vampiric world. An exhumed body that lacked nails or had grown new ones was summarily staked, and very often burned or reburied with garlic to seal the corpse within the ground.Quoted from here

In the RotE books themselves, the only real references to nails that I can think of is Fitz and Fool nibbling on the corner of their thumbnails now and then; Thymara's claws instead of nails and Beloved's loss of them during the Pale Woman's torturing of him....hmm...could there be something even in that?! I don't think so BUT if there couldn't be a link to Kitten-Thick and the drowned kittens of Kennit's, there's no reason there could be a link with Kennit's nails and Fool?

[Mervi]

Err... the only thing I can think about regarding human fingernails ... not ... connected to the body is a classic episode of the X-files titled Irresistible ... aaaand I'd rather not think about it all!

[Chrischa]

Here's another one; I was talking with my sister tonight (also a big RH fan) and we figured that we also need to look at the actual prophecy that was derived from the objects found by Kennit on the beach. The Other looks at his finds and concludes from them that Kennits deepest wish will come to pass. Kennit interprets that as his desire to become King of the Pirate Isles, but it is more likely that his true deepest wish was to pass on - and thus get rid of - the pain of his childhood abuse. He fulfilled this wish by raping Althea. So how do the drowned kittens, the jewel, and the teacup point towards this wish?
I think the kittens might stand for Althea who was nearly drowned when Kennit pulled her from the sea, possibly combined with cruelty towards a child? What if the connection between Kennit and Thick is that they both suffered as a child? Thicks mother seemed nice but what's with this male figure in the troope who was never to be called "dad"? Did he rape Thicks mother and abuse his son?
The teacup could maybe stand for Bingtown high class that Kennit escaped (actually, his father did, but Kennit never returned of course).
That leaves the fingernails and we've been racking our brains for some connection between the Others prophecy, the outcome that we know and the fingernails, but couldn't find anything. Something about the Paragon or about revenge?

[Farseer]

I think the kittens might stand for Althea who was nearly drowned when Kennit pulled her from the sea, possibly combined with cruelty towards a child? What if the connection between Kennit and Thick is that they both suffered as a child? Thicks mother seemed nice but what's with this male figure in the troope who was never to be called "dad"? Did he rape Thicks mother and abuse his son?
The teacup could maybe stand for Bingtown high class that Kennit escaped (actually, his father did, but Kennit never returned of course).

Am loving it !!!!

[Nuytsia]

In the RotE books themselves, the only real references to nails that I can think of is Fitz and Fool nibbling on the corner of their thumbnails now and then; Thymara's claws instead of nails and Beloved's loss of them during the Pale Woman's torturing of him....hmm...could there be something even in that?! I don't think so BUT if there couldn't be a link to Kitten-Thick and the drowned kittens of Kennit's, there's no reason there could be a link with Kennit's nails and Fool?

Isn't it the case that if your fingernails are completely torn out they don't grow back at all?

The only reference to fingernails I can think of in other books is in Hogfather by Terry Pratchett. The reference is primarily to the teeth collected by the tooth fairy, but I am fairly certain at one point they are talking about why someone would want to steal children's teeth and they say something like body parts such as teeth, fingernails and hair can give you power over the person (who they came from). Something about it being very old magic.
Also like voodoo I guess!

[Lord Punctual]

I've heard that bit about fingernails and hair trimmings giving power over a person before. but I think the nails on the beach were false fingernails, not human nails that had been removed, so I'm not sure that removed fingernails are really relevant.

I don't know if fully torn out fingernails don't grow back. I really badly injured my thumb nail once (rabbit bite, oddly enough) and it grew back wierd for a while but eventually went back to normal, so... I guess I have nothing helpful to add.

[tiatsuchi]

Did not Fitz also have a ruby pin given to him by King Shrewd that was later instrumental in convincing his former friends and family that he was dead? (When that Forged One stole his shirt.)

My apologies if someone else has responded to this and I did not see it. The pin that Fitz was given by King Shrewd was, indeed, ruby.

[Farseer]

Thanks tiatsuchi, and WELCOME to thePlenty ! Yes, Shrewd's pin was a ruby, and I had planned to go back over all things related to it (in case Robin put some other sneaky connection in there somewhere!!), as well as Fool's tent. I found a few passages re the tent but couldn't find any mention of red and blue as colours, but I'm sure they're there!

I agree with Chrischa in that we (especially ME!) must remember to look at the prophecy itself...on that, re this part of Chrischa's post The teacup could maybe stand for Bingtown high class that Kennit escaped (actually, his father did, but Kennit never returned of course). , I think this could definitely be the case but also wonder, as the teacups were of Elderling make, if this could even stand for Kennit turning his back on the opportunity to himself become an Elderling or to become part of the society that was to come? Right up until his raping of Althea, it could certainly be said that he was headed for even higher levels of greatness...fate and his actions toward the end (Althea, incestuous thoughts of the yet-to-be-born Paragon Ludluck) just proved this not to be so.

In the same vein, maybe all of the objects he left behind were symbols of opportunities he turned his back on...things that didn't come to pass for him...and it was only the ruby earring and figurine of Etta, as the objects he actually took away with him, that symbolized the opportunities he wished to grasp?
eg Dutiful took the necklace of Elliana and their marriage came to pass, Etta took the serpentine figurine and the birth of her baby came to pass, Fitz took the rooster feathers and these returned the White Prophet to him and, lastly, Wintrow took She Who Remembers and thus the serpents received their memories.

Getting off track a bit, I can’t help but also think of the rose he smashed, and wonder if this did not prophecy his crushing of Althea? This is a really difficult one as the rose was not actually picked up by him and so, therefore, was never technically part of ‘his’ future? Aside from that, the motley jesters who tumbled in unison makes me crazy to think about...it is just too connected to the Fool, minstrels/the Rooster Crown and the White Prophet who Fool and Fitz saw in the vision at the town plaza in AQ!!!

Up until your post, Chrischa, I hadn’t thought of Kennit’s greatest wish to be more than just being crowned King of the Pirate Isles but your suggestion that it was to actually pass on the pain etc is so perfectly plausible!!! I love how you have connected it all, except for those darned fingernails!!!

Possibly his wish even could have included a desire to be reunited with Paragon and then finally able to find peace in his being whole again...

EDIT MUCH LATER 18/08/10 - Please ignore my comments above re the crushing of the rose/Althea...it was the sphere of tumblers Kennit crushed, but then he chose not to do the same thing to the rose.

[Nuytsia]

I think the nails on the beach were false fingernails, not human nails that had been removed, so I'm not sure that removed fingernails are really relevant.

Yes, sorry I was a bit ambiguous there! I didn't think the ones on the beach were actual removed fingernails (Gross!!) I was just sort of musing on whether the Fool has any fingernails now........
I guess the false fingernails just go over regular fingernails, they aren't for people without fingernails (or are they? heh)

this could even stand for Kennit turning his back on the opportunity to himself become an Elderling

Hehehe that possibility blows my mind!

In the same vein, maybe all of the objects he left behind were symbols of opportunities he turned his back on...things that didn't come to pass for him...and it was only the ruby earring and figurine of Etta, as the objects he actually took away with him, that symbolized the opportunities he wished to grasp?
eg Dutiful took the necklace of Elliana and their marriage came to pass, Etta took the serpentine figurine and the birth of her baby came to pass, Fitz took the rooster feathers and these returned the White Prophet to him and, lastly, Wintrow took She Who Remembers and thus the serpents received their memories.

Oh this is great stuff! Gee that fits perfectly.

Getting off track a bit, I can’t help but also think of the rose he smashed, and wonder if this did not prophecy his crushing of Althea? This is a really difficult one as the rose was not actually picked up by him and so, therefore, was never technically part of ‘his’ future? Aside from that, the motley jesters who tumbled in unison makes me crazy to think about...it is just too connected to the Fool, minstrels/the Rooster Crown and the White Prophet who Fool and Fitz saw in the vision at the town plaza in AQ!!!

Hmmm interesting, I can't even remember those bits!

Possibly his wish even could have included a desire to be reunited with Paragon and then finally able to find peace in his being whole again...

Definitely!

[Farseer]

Getting totally off-track re the Treasure Beach items...

Where do the ships go when they disappear from the eastern side of Others Island? Do they end up near a land far across the ocean, maybe even near where the Great Sail Fleet hails? If ships have the ability to leave and then vanish, this would suggest they vanish via a Skill pillar (possibly from being anchored near the one which Fitz and Dutiful used, or another one further out to sea given there is plenty of 'black rock' in the vicinity?) and emerge elsewhere via a distant Skill pillar. If this is the case, and there is a Skill pillar which allows these ships to emerge from, it would suggest that the lands east of the currently known 'realm' have also been exposed to Elderlings and dragons etc?

Why was Vivacia able to sail onto this eastern side to save Wintrow, Etta and Kennit without vanishing, as other ships have been known to do? One must be Skilled to enter a Skill pillar...would not a liveship then be the very ship that could enter a Skill pillar, as opposed to an everyday, wooden ship.

Also, if Others are the products of dragons and Elderlings/humans, and have the ability to use glamour/Skill suggestions (so are therefore most likely Skilled), why have they never tried to use the Skill pillar near the beach? Is it because they are more dragon than human and can't use the pillars, or because they choose not to for some reason?