Others' Island (spoilers all books incl RWC)

[Valarya]

To me though, Kennit didn't ever truly care for Etta while he was alive and so therefore would not have bothered himself with either her or her feelings after his death.

I most certainly agree that Kennit never truly cared for Etta when he was alive, which is why this time-around I thought to myself "wait, that wouldn't have been Kennit. If not him, then who!?" which is how I came to the conclusion it could have been the unborn baby. Of course, I feel that the wizardwood charm is the most-likely and logical culprit here.

Argh! A thought is is niggling at me though...something about Paragon, the ship, having heard the charm, or been aware of it, at one other time, or vice-versa, before? Will see what I can dig up.

I can't recall a time when Paragon was aware of it because Etta was only on his ship for the short time they fled the Jamallians & landed on Stink Island to assist Tintaglia. The moment we've been speaking about seems to be the only time the ship becomes aware of the voice but he only thinks of it as not-Kennit, but sounding of Kennit. There was definitely an awareness between the charm and Vivacia - to the point the charm hints of having spoken with her several times. Perhaps that's what you're thinking?

While Malta, Selden and Reyn are 'formally' Elderlings already, and ones such as Thymara, Rapscal etc are quickly transforming to that state which is outwardly visible to all within the realm as being 'Elderling' eg scaled skin, eyes of varying colour etc, we also then have ones such as Wintrow, Althea, Thick, Dutiful, Nettle and Fitz etc who are descended from Elderlings (or who have 'the stuff of dragons' in their family line) but who do not show outward signs of their heritage other than the very human black hair, black eyes and dark skin colouring that does not match what most conceive as being of Elderlings...it is more in their Skill, sensitivity to liveships etc that the world could define the strain. Possibly I am very wrong in this line of thought!!

Ah, see.. I believe we define Elderlings somewhat differently. I think having sensitivity to a liveship is somewhat different than being Skill-sensitive. In a liveship there are years and years of human memories piled on top and, due to the nature of dragons & their spit (which helps make the cocoons), I think anyone can be sensitive to the stuff. When SWR's slime touches Wintrow.. do you believe that is a true Skill-link or merely a by-product of having touched her slime? Think back to when an entire crew is affected by the figurehead's mood (hello, Paragon) by being in close proximity to the wizardwood. Is it coincidence that all those people can Skill, to have that sensitivity? I doubt it.

Think, instead, of those people who can understand when the Dragon speaks. Or the fact that some people can't understand her at all! Some people in the Rain Wilds could "hear the music" of the Elderling city.. and some cannot. True skill-sensitivity in these cases, I think. Fitz, Dutiful, Nettle, Thick, Malta, Reyn, Selden.. all of these people can understand the dragon speak. Remember when Althea, Wintrow & Malta are all in the stateroom on Vivacia, recounting their tales of what had happened to them after leaving Bingtown. Vivacia calls the serpents and the serpents reply.. and, later, Tintaglia comes. Malta can understand what the ship is saying to the serpents & what Tintaglia is saying, but Althea and Wintrow can't. Neither can Kennit.. which is where I was going with this huge-ass paragraph.

I'd say that, since Kennit nor Althea nor Wintrow are Skill-sensitive.. they will not become Elderlings nor give birth to Elderlings unless the dragon deigns to honor them with her "touch."

I think this theory of mine could be applied to why some of the people in Kelsingra are obviously Elderlings, and some humans. The humans are a. not skill sensitive and b. not touched by a dragon or descended from someone who was. Of course this all falls apart when you say things like "Fitz sees someone with black hair/black eyes speaking with a dragon and doesn't mention elongated limbs."

I'm curious about all your mentions of the black hair/black eyes thing. I've long thought it very interesting that, out of all the places/realms/cities/people we've seen in this series, the Six Duchies folk seem to have more Elderling lore/scrolls/tapestries left over from ancient times than any others... not counting the Rain Wilders now that they're excavating old cities full of the stuff, but before that the Rain Wilders were merely Jamallians.

The Six Duchies folk, alone, also remember what it is to use the magic of the dragons (Skill) to their benefit.. which makes me feel they're the most closely descended from Elderlings. They have black hair/black eyes. So tell me what I'm missing here with the features, lol.

On a tangent, possibly their entire existance, and not just their memories, hinges on their consumption of their cocoon after hatching eg what would happen to a dragon which hatched but for some reason was not able to consume its cocoon?

Well.. we know that some of the dragons had died in the wizardwood long before the Rain Wilders began cutting them up. Eg. Ophelia most-likely came from one of these cocoons. She has no dragon 'soul' lying under in wait. However Jani/Reyn had mentioned several times how they would spill the thing from it's cradle still wiggling and watch it spasm and die. They knew they were killing some of the dragons. Would those dragon-hatchlings have survived if they were spilled forth during high summer, the heat pouring down on their skins? Interesting to think about, for sure!!! I'd imagine it would be a very stunted dragon without the rich memories/life of the skill-veined and spit-coated cocoon.. much like the stuned dragons we know from RWC.

Regardless, Paragon the boy is obviously of some importance or else why would Amber have bothered to speak to Wintrow of him, and request that Wintrow stay by his side? He will also still have the stuff of dragons in his line, as did Malta. Still, in the beginning, not one of us could have ever predicted her rise to Elderling status. Possibly the same will be said for Paragon, the boy/man.

We are certainly witnessing not only the next generation of Elderlings being created but also the next generation of the world that will live to see (hopefully!) time shifted to a new course.

Oh I definitely agree boy Paragon will be quite important someday. Witnessing the next generation of Elderlings.. right when everyone shows up in Kelsingra (the town we watched Fitz stumble through) makes me ITCH for City of Dragons! Hurry up February!!

['thul]

These beings will no doubt forget to comment on some part of your post...

The wizardwood charm loves Etta the way Kennit should have loved her. Possibly how he would have if he had been bingtown raised as well as bingtown born.

The transformation to Elderling requires close proximity to dragons. Liveships are of dragons, but they are not dragons, thus they cannot effect the transformation, though they have the knowledge on how it is done.

One thing these beings wonder about is what happened to the cocoons that were washed away in the flood. If they recall correctly, about 20 cocoons were washed away. Only one was shown to have been found. considering what percentage of the remaining that hatched and lived (about 15 out of 60), that should indicate that about 5 of those 19 missing cocoons were still viable. 'thul presume that those 19 were (eventually) washed out to sea. Since wizardwood is extremely dense, it is probable that they do not float naturally. The hollow within a log of it might be enough to prevent it from sinking completely, but not enough to allow floatation. Thus the 19 lost ones could easily have been moved far by the seas. Light filtered through the seas is probably insufficient to trigger hatching, thus the cocoons may yet become fully viable, perhaps even allowing the dragons within to age to the point where they come out fully formed, if with reduced memory.

Perhaps a cocoon or two will wash up on the treasure beach, covered in sufficient amount of seaweed to prevent hatching?

[Valarya]

You bring up an interesting point, thul. I always wondered why Tintaglia didn't just ask the dragons to wait another year, for just one more high summer to allow the dragons to fully form. She must have been in a cocoon for hundreds of years herself.. and she still came out alright.

Why bother to take the chance of them being stunted and/or deformed? Surely she wasn't desperate for a mate that quickly?

['thul]

As was revealed by Sintara in her cocoon, there was no occurrence in her ancestral memory of any stunted dragon. Most likely there was no such thing in the memories of Tintaglia either. If that is the case, then she had no idea that cocooning too short a time would trigger malformations. She blamed the deformations on serpent age, not on too short cocooning time.

[Farseer]

I am so sorry to have to ignore the majority of your post, Valarya, especially as I have so much to say in response to it, and 'thul's, but I just wanted to invite you to take a look here to a thread I dedicated soley to the subject of black hair and black eyes. This was after I went on and on about it throughout the forums, of course, so it doesn't contain much aside from a list of a characters. I think I am a lone wolf in my belief that there is a connection to the Skill and these dark features, and will have to go back and build on it all some more one day...like so many other discussions that I have involved myself in (or is that corners I have placed myself in?!).

I do want to say though that I disagree that it is only in the Six Duchies where the Skill is used, and this is pivotal to my thoughts regarding Wintrow, Elderlings etc. I have spoken about it at length elsewhere so will try and find some links for those conversations also but, if I can’t, I’ll happily share more of my disputable theories!

I have to sleep...

[Valarya]

I apologize for not going through ALL 11 pages of posts here but I do remember going through quite a bit of them when I first joined these forums.

I was just sitting on the couch reading Fool's Fate and something struck me that has never STUCK before. I don't know how I missed this the first few times around!!!!!!!!!!

(Since there's a spoiler tag for ALL books in the thread title, and we've already been discussing the books without spoiler tags, I'm just gonna go right for it.)

That being: Others are deformed dragons who have taken on too much 'essence' of humans.

I.. I'm just so shocked to the core that tiny paragraph never sunk in before. I'm sure you remember it, Farseer.. but for anyone else: after Fitz takes Fool through the Pillar on Aslevjal back to the marketplace close to the Dragon Graveyard... and brings him back to life... they eventually return through the Skill Pillar to Aslevjal. As they're walking through the ice labyrinth they notice a few depictions (once again) of Elderlings... Fitz makes the comment that the pictures remind him of Selden, to which the Fool nods. Fool then uses the analogy of a white and red rose living alongside one another for a long time.. eventually one starts to take on characteristics of the other.. adding a reddish tint to a white rose, or vice versa. He explains that, so too is it with humans and dragons. Humans long in cohorts/proximity to dragons begin to take on their 'essence' thus becoming the Elderlings.

That's when Fitz asks "But what of dragons? Do they take no effect from their exposure to us?"
And Fool replies "I suspect they do. But they find it shameful and banish such beings. You have been to Others Island."

['thul]

These beings do not recall the exact details of that passage, though they quite well remember the essence of it.

[Farseer]

I apologize for not going through ALL 11 pages of posts here

Can't say that I blame you ...I find it very difficult to recall things I've written so find I must go back over things at times and it's never easy to go back over it all. Actually, I just can't most days as I'd never find time to live life if I did! One day I decided I was going to start printing out threads I really wanted to get stuck into instead but once I'd done the first one, there was no way I was going to continue... !

I'm sorry I haven't found the Wintrow and Skill 'stuff' yet. It's a subject I really like talking about. Will not leave this seat until I do find it this time! I tend to sprawl my comments over too many threads and thus never have the full telling of my thoughts exactly where it should be!

I was just sitting on the couch reading Fool's Fate

I am suitably impressed that you have progressed so quickly through your re-read! I am still stuck on the Skill Road in AQ, and have been there for the last year it seems..!

(Since there's a spoiler tag for ALL books in the thread title, and we've already been discussing the books without spoiler tags, I'm just gonna go right for it.)

Go right ahead whenever you see 'all' or 'RotE' ... ... you will notice that once a thread gets started, we often have to later amend the spoiler tag to include all books as discussion usually gravitates to events from another series.

That being: Others are deformed dragons who have taken on too much 'essence' of humans.

I.. I'm just so shocked to the core that tiny paragraph never sunk in before. I'm sure you remember it, Farseer..

I do remember it very well , and it is one of my favourite passsages in the books as it explains much of what goes on between characters. Not only with the Elderlings and Others (or rather 'Abominations' in the minds of the dragons due to the human element within them) does this apply but also to other relationships eg both humans and animals linked via a Wit-bond, such as Fitz taking on wolf characteristics and Nighteyes those of a man, or even Fool himself who is often surprised at his humanity after his connection with Fitz (and sometimes I have wondered if some of the Farseer in Fitz is not as much a result of his own connection with Fool's seeing ability as a White Prophet as his own Elderling or founder-of-the-House-of-Farseer heritage). Even something as small as Fitz taking on many of Burrich's mannerisms and sayings while young, or Kennit taking on aspects of Igrot's etc is still evidence of transferral due to close proximity. While these are not so much the physical changes as happens with Others and Elderlings, the rose illustration still explains much for them also.

I love re-reads, and I have loved sharing your WOW moment with you, Valarya! Now you'll have to go back and re-read LST so you can view the Others etc from this new perspective! Ah, the RotE books never get old...

[Valarya]

I actually did just finish the LST a week or two ago, hahah. I've gone through this re-read so fast, but I have you guys and a real-life buddy who is almost done with Book 9 - so I've had plenty of theories and conjectures over which to marinade.

In regards to your proximity musings (which I like a lot):

I wanted to mention something about Nighteyes 'sacrificing' a wolf's life in order to follow Fitz, just as Fitz might have sacrificed a human life in order to follow Fool - but that discussion is for another thread and another time (when I'm not falling asleep on my keyboard).

[fool-ish]

Forgive me if this has been brought up before and perhaps more importantly, if I'm stating the downright obvious but are the 'abominations' the work/tools of the Pale Woman?