Voyages of discovery? (spoilers for all RotE books)

[Farseer]

Here are a few passages that I thought may contribute to the discussion re voyages, where lands masses are situated in the RotE and also where it is that dragons are able to live successfully:
...
In AQ, Fitz noted that the map within the Kelsingra Map Tower depicted only the local area (the city and surrounding countryside) however, when he saw a similarly-made map within the Map Tower of Aslevjal in FF, he realised it was a world map - "...

Ahem...as my eldest son just totally destroyed my internet pages (and now my thePlenty is all over the place!!!!!), I have just realised that NeverBeenWise had already done the hard work for me and posted this whole passage re the world map in Aslevjal!!!!! And I thought I was so clever.... !!!

I must go back and re-read every thread to find posts I missed while away last month!!!

[Farseer]

Still not having read Soldier Son yet, I must tread very carefully here, but... isn't the point here that the two "worlds" could be seperated by something like a great sea? If that is the case, it would account for the differences in technology: in isolation from each other, they develop differently.

I totally agree with your thoughts on this, Albertosaurus Rex!!! I'm sorry to have to continue this line of thought and respond here, maulkin, but just a quick note re technology and such (and hoping it stretches enough to even be applicable to voyages or lands across the sea?!)...

Not only could two worlds separated by a vast ocean be the cause of such a difference in technology but the RotE has had a HUGE set-back in its history due to natural catastrophes and other disasters. Who is to say that the Elderlings etc were not a ‘technological’ race prior to the cataclysm? Much is still being discovered and there is much still to be understood.

They were certainly advanced in industry and this is evidenced by their very large cities, a number of which were built to accommodate immense dragons. The Elderlings also designed elaborate bridges and constructed the Skill Road, as well as a variety of other structures (including those now under water near The Pirate Isles, such as the arch that was seen by the serpents on their way north).

While we know that much of the Elderlings was destroyed or buried within the realm, we still don’t know the extent of exactly what was destroyed, or at what stage that part of the world truly was 'at' prior to the event. The Rain Wilders etc have still much to learn about the Elderlings despite having plundered Trehaug etc for many years and, yet, in many ways, a lot of what is known is already beyond a mere human’s imagining.

In AQ, Fitz noted machines in the quarry:

“...On the floor of the quarry a number of immense blocks had been abandoned amidst piles of rubble and dust. The huge blocks were bigger than buildings. I could not imagine how they had been cut, let alone how they would have been hauled away. Beside them were the remains of great machines, reminding me somewhat of siege engines. Their wood had rotted, their metal rusted. Their remains hunched together like mouldering bones...”

These machines alone, even with no other evidence such as the cities etc, makes me think that the Elderlings had quite a bit of know-how in the area of technology, industry and design.

While trebuchets etc may seem like a long way off from cannons and guns etc used in SS, it would seem to me that if Fitz knew the use of a siege engine, it would not be long before siege engines became somewhat obsolete and be replaced by cannons as field artillery, and then guns following soon after (after all, ‘cannon' and ‘gun’ seem to pretty much mean the same thing historically for us?).

That Chade has not long discovered gunpowder (as Nuytsia pointed out, and has been discussed somewhere else on thePlenty...if I could find the discussion, I’d probably place this post there instead of here!) also shows us that things are progressing in this area?

Maybe if the cataclysm had not happened, wiping out entire generations of dragons, people etc and progress, technology in the RotE may have surpassed even that in SS. As it is, such weaponry as is seen in SS is still unknown to many inhabitants of thatworld. In this example is proof that one does not even have to be separated by a great sea to be at a different stage of technological development...even simple differences such as politics, finances, culture and beliefs etc can create as great a divide as time, water or land.

This latter point could easily include development in travel and trade etc. Liveships seem to have been around for many years but even ones such as Fitz etc are still shocked to discover that they are real...and he lives relatively close to Bingtown, in the Six Duchies. With the opening up of relationships on the political front, via marriage alliances etc, trade is increasing and also the desire to travel. In this, the world of the RotE seems to be quite new really (with not a lot of voyages of discovery etc) but we know that it isn’t...it has a history that reaches way back into legend...it is just that its current history is quite new and the post-Elderling inhabitants all seem to have simply 'started over' to a certain degree. Only now are they really just learning about their true history and all that it means.

I’m not sure if I’m making sense here or not, or if this has anything to do with anything at all!

['thul]

where in the liveship books are cannons used?

the only weapons those ships have with range that these beings can recall, are bows and arrows, as well as firepots, which are tossed by catapults... for everything else, they have to move in close and use grappling hooks to get from one ship to another...

[Farseer]

Oh 'thul, don't tell me that!!! I can't believe I have based an entire post on something 'from memory' (not to mention whilst in an almost comatose state!) and didn't go back to check it in the text or think on it some...didn't I learn from the last time I did that ?! You beings are correct, of course! Crikey...let me amend my post ie twist it to suit my purposes, minus cannons , so that I can still argue your beings point!

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Who said anything about there being cannons in LST ??!!

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['thul]

not all forums use such boxes...

[Nuytsia]

I have often wondered that myself Farseer, but I've never seen whereabouts you are able to type in the Edit Reason!!

[maulkin]

That Chade has not long discovered gunpowder (as Nuytsia pointed out, and has been discussed somewhere else on thePlenty...if I could find the discussion, I’d probably place this post there instead of here!) also shows us that things are progressing in this area?

The discussion is in the thread entitled "Chade's powder equals..." Perhaps we should revive it so that newer members can contribute.

Maybe if the cataclysm had not happened, wiping out entire generations of dragons, people etc and progress, technology in the RotE may have surpassed even that in SS. As it is, such weaponry as is seen in SS is still unknown to many inhabitants of thatworld. In this example is proof that one does not even have to be separated by a great sea to be at a different stage of technological development...even simple differences such as politics, finances, culture and beliefs etc can create as great a divide as time, water or land.

This is a good point. For centuries, Chinese technology was far more advanced than European technology, yet China failed to industrialise, largely for political reasons. The Chinese developed gunpowder many years before Europe but never developed effective guns. As a consequence, when Europe did industrialise, Britain was able to defeat the entire Chinese fleet with a single battleship. Although separated by great distances, China and Europe were connected by trade and aware of one another's existence throughout most of history. Their differences in technology can only be attributed to "politics, finances, culture and beliefs" and perhaps to other factors such as geography, population density and availability of natural resources.

[maulkin]

Now that I think of it, perhaps the fool's intervention was actually intended to prevent (or at least moderate) industrialisation of the Six Duchies/Bingtown culture by reintroducing dragons as a potent symbol and agent of the natural world. The Elderlings had developed a high-technology culture but this was built around partnership with and respect for nature in the form of dragons. The Six Duchies, on the other hand, displayed a growing alienation from nature, as evidenced by their treatment of the witted (and by the Piebalds' abuse of their animal partners). The Rainwilders had shown their own contempt for natural wonders and sense of entitlement to natural resources through their slaughter of unhatched dragons to produce wizardwood for liveships. The SS trilogy provides a vivid example of the unstoppable nature of runaway industrialisation, once it has acquired cultural momentum. Perhaps the Fool was attempting to prevent a Gernia-like culture from arising in the Realm of the Elderlings.

[taloshield]

I am not sure where I read this, but in an interview with Robin Hobb she stated that the Soldiers Son is in a completely different world and is not related at all to RotE. A child asked her if she could write about magic meeting technology and that is how that story idea began. So there may be coincidences, but they are not in any way within the same world nor separated by an ocean. They are in different planets, realms, universes, or whatever you want to call it, but either way, not in the same place.

['thul]

I am not sure where I read this, but in an interview with Robin Hobb she stated that the Soldiers Son is in a completely different world and is not related at all to RotE. A child asked her if she could write about magic meeting technology and that is how that story idea began. So there may be coincidences, but they are not in any way within the same world nor separated by an ocean. They are in different planets, realms, universes, or whatever you want to call it, but either way, not in the same place.

These beings recall having seen something to that effect as well...

Anything else is just wishful thinking...