A song of Ice and fire discussion (spoilers incl A Dance with Dragons)

[redchild]

Spoiler

I DID NOT see it coming in regards to the assassination attempt on Jon. It did seem as though things might be turning around, but with the short-sightedness of the anti-wildling faction of the Night's Watch, and the slavers kidnapping wildlings in Hardhome, it doesn't seem as if Jon can do it himself. I'm still perplexed about Melisandre. Does she know what she's doing or what?

Theon was also quite a surprise. But his character is fleshed out even more this time and now there's a clearer picture of what motivated his treachery, which is kind of ironic, in hindsight.

Bran's storyline was short, but now that he has the abilities of a greenseer, anything can happen. I still wish I knew what happened to Osha and Rickon. And so far as we know, Jon, Bran, and Arya have warg abilities. Rickon probably is too though I don't know about Sansa. I also missed her POVs.

Whatever brief glimpse we got of Brienne and Jaime was not enough. I kind of wish George had stuck in Jaime's single chapter in AFFC, but I suppose he did it to coincide with Cersei's chapters in the time line. Cersei seems to have lost her fire in the end, though I think Varys is going to maneuver to put her back in power of some form. I don't think she will act according to his plans anymore, though. Sansa and Margaery are also still in the game.

And I can't believe Qyburn made a zombie
Victarion's got a rock for a brain.

Aegon's (or rather, Connington's) attempt on the throne is doomed, even with Varys helping him out. Both Targaryens were raised with the tenet that they are the rightful rulers of Westeros, though Aegon is the only one who seems to believe it. Aegon's drive is this belief drilled into him since childhood, fueled by his teenage impulsiveness and backed by people older and more dangerous who all have their own designs. I don't think he's given much thought to what he would do after he's taken the throne. I think Dany's still trying to find a reason why she should even attempt to take Westeros. I have a suspicion that she would do so in order to fight the Others. Dany's prophecy implies that she might travel East to Asshai and possibly from there to Westeros (and *gasp* prove that the world is round,) though she's still got unfinished business with Mereen. I hope siege could be settled well, because there is also the chance that it could simply be run to the ground, which would be the easy, cheap way to end it. Though Tyrion's encounter with the Widow in Volantis may be a hint at the slave rebellion spreading, even if Mereen is destroyed.

The thing I noticed in this book the most is how so many prophecies and predictions have turned out completely wrong or misguided. There are probably hundreds of priests of Rhollor who all think they've got Azor Ahai. Varys seems to believe Aegon is going to win the throne, though everyone knows that he won't be taken seriously unless he's got Dany's dragons.

[Albertosaurus Rex]

Spoiler

Are you so certain Connington's attempt is doomed? I think much will depend on whether or not they'll manage to sway Dorne to their cause. Dany fighting the Others is something I can definitely see happen, but how on Earth is she going to get there now?

[redchild]

Spoiler

I think Connington's attempt is going to fail because he really does not have the support of the entire kingdom. Even if he does have Dorne on his side, he will still have to reckon with the Lannisters, Tyrells, Stannis, Bolton, the Brotherhood Without Banners, and the Iron Born. And none of them want to share. He's attempting to take over a kingdom that's already rotten, drowning in debt, and falling apart at the seams. Brienne's POVs in AFFC gave us a look at the ordinary citizens of Westeros who are struggling to survive day to day with Winter arriving. I've yet to hear any citizen of Westeros wax nostalgic for the return of the Targaryens.

What Dany has that Aegon doesn't is her abilities as a leader to bring disparate people under her banner, but she's still pretty green when it comes to political intrigues. Robert Baratheon had the same charisma to unite and to take down a common threat, but even he was an inept ruler. Aegon and Connington so far are acting upon the suggestion of a Lannister, which shows some pretty bad decision making, as the Lannisters helped bring down the Targaryens, and are trying to take over a kingdom already filled to the brim with prospective kings, under the premise that Aegon has the right to rule through disinherited inheritance. Or I could be wrong and Aegon does become king and Dany didn't really matter. I'm still kind of wary over the sudden appearance of yet another Targaryen that somehow escaped death at infancy.

['thul]

*read no spoilers*

These beings have now gotten 384 pages into the book, after starting their reading late sunday.

['thul]

Spoiler

These beings are unsure about how any plot will turn out, but they were most pleased with the many well-laid-out and obvious plot lines that Martin as usual tore to shreds.

They suspect that the presence of Drogon with Daenerys may convince a certain Khal that serving her is a very good idea. Just imagine a Dothraki horde attacking a city, only to have the prepared defenders lit on fire from above...

The main problem 'thul see in Daenerys is that she's too afraid to commit, she doesn't know truly what she wants... She is also very inexperienced in the ways of the world. If the khal plotline shifts as these beings think, then the battle for Meereen will go very badly for the slavers. Especially if Tyrion and such convince the sellswords to switch sides.

Bran might turn out to have very much power, though mainly focused in the north, seeing that weirwoods have been chopped down in the south. While they are natural deposits of the past, incapable of changing it, they also appear to be a conduit through which he can talk to others.

Ramsay appears to have tried a ploy beyond his knowledge. He claimed to have slain Stannis and lost his bride, yet the reader knows that the bride is in the same camp as Stannis. As for whether he has Mance, that is likely, yet how would he know for sure it were Mance?

Their favorite character is without a doubt no one. A religion that deals in death, both peaceful and unexpected is excellent for thinking on. The magical nature of their priests also helps. The many faces are logical in hindsight, but were not expected to be that way. It is fairly obvious that She will have some important role in the next book or so. Whom she is, is not for anyone to know. These beings do wonder when and how priest(esse)s of the many-faced God learn to control their many faces.

[Farseer]

When ADwD made it to #1 on the Sunday Times Bestseller List, everyone at Voyager celebrated with some ASoIaF-themed cakes

[Image: cupcakes-300x222.jpg]

so I thought I'd share them here.

I am going to attempt some RotE-themed cakes when I get the chance! It's true...I'm that obsessed...

['thul]

Ok, a theory these beings wonder what others think about (for those having read ADWD):

Spoiler

Have any of you pondered more about Jon Snow's parentage? Could it be that he is not truly a son of Eddard Stark?
Might it be that he is instead a Son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen?

He's still a Stark that way, so his Starkish look is not in doubt, and there is only one man's word that he is Eddard's son. . Lyanna forced a promise out of Eddard before dying, yet the words of the promise are unknown, as is the reason she was dying. Dying while protected by no less than three members of the kingsguard.

Well, there is another that knows of the promise, but he is Eddard's sworn bannerman and is fairly likely to be the one to reveal the truth.

Should the birthright described above be true, even Daenerys claim to the throne will be false, since she's not in the direct line of eldest children.


Now what do you think?

[redchild]

Spoiler

A daughter, `thul?

I've heard of the Lyanna+Raeghar theory as well. It makes sense internally, from what information is given by the books up to now. Though George seems to like throwing red herrings everywhere.

I don't know if Daenarys' claim would be considered false, as Jon was born out of wedlock. As I understand it, it's the legitimate children who have the strongest claim, followed by bastards (who are acknowledged, at least,) followed by the king's siblings. Unless Dany and Aegon are dead, then Jon Targaryen might make a claim, should he learn of his parentage and should he even have the ambition.

But as is evident, even if you have a 100% legal, ironclad claim for the throne, doesn't mean you'll get it; not without a long, hard fight.

I think there are also theories of the Lannister siblings being Targaryen bastards as well, with Aerys as the sire; though I don't think the evidence is strong enough to support that theory. Cersei and Jaime are in an incestuous relationship and Cersei seems to have similar symptoms of mental disorder that runs in the Targaryen bloodline. But just because the Targaryens are known for incest and neurosis, doesn't mean that everyone who is incestuous and neurotic is a Targaryen. The case for Tyrion is even weaker, simply because he was born with physical deficiencies, mismatched eyes, and a different personality from his immediate family. Tywin did not consider him as his son, though that could just be out of shame that his legitimate son was born a dwarf and Jaime was a bastard.

Of course you could still say the Targaryen's aren't really the rightful rulers of Westeros, either, if you go far back enough in history. Which is why Bran's POVs suddenly got a lot more interesting

['thul]

Spoiler

While no marriage has been revealed, These beings would not put it beyond someone like Rhaegar to have dealt with that detail during the long time Lyanna was captive. It was fairly obvious from the reading that these beings have done that Rhaegar was in love with and/or obsessed with her.

There are a few problems with the claim if it were proven true. Like a certain oath Jon took. But if enough insist, no doubt such would be ignored.
For that matter, think of a union between Jon and Daenerys. Both the power of the north and the power of dragons.

The Lannister siblings have the typical Lannister looks, even Tyrion has that, if you twist it a bit and add some dwarfism.

[redchild]

Spoiler

But as the theory with Jon goes, he has very pronounced Stark features. If the Lannister-Targaryen theory holds true, then it would make sense that the Lannister siblings would look more Lannister than Targaryen. Platinum blonde hair and violet eyes are very rare genetic traits, even in the fantasy world of ASOIAF. A child born of two Targaryens would have very high chance of looking unmistakably Targaryen, though one born outside the family would likely show more features of the non-Targaryen parent. There have been many minor characters who claim to have Targaryen blood in their family history, but do not look Targaryen. A combination of generations and dominant traits from non-Targaryen genes would hardly express any visible Targaryen features.

Speaking of genetic traits, it seems that invulnerability to fire is quite selective as well. Dany can survive dragonfire, which I presume to be much hotter than the molten gold that killed Viserys. Jon is not invulnerable to fire, as we see in his fight with the wight where he burned his hand. That may be a point against claims that he is Targaryen. Though even should he turn out to be Targaryen, I don't think he can ride a dragon.

I do wonder if Melisandre and other priests of Rhollar can withstand dragonfire.

Regarding the possibility of marriage between Jon and Dany, I've also read speculation of a union between Dany and Tyrion. Somehow I doubt such a union would come easily as it seems Dany is still only ever attracted to young, physically powerful, alpha-type males. Should they ever be in a relationship, I'd imagine they would need to have a very strong bond of trust established first. Jon would have to consider whether he would be breaking his Night's Watch oath, and Tyrion is still attached to Tysha and married to Sansa at the moment. There's still Jorah Mormant in the picture, where I have no idea what will happen to him, as well as the iron-born racing to claim her as wife, Aegon in Westeros, and I don't doubt Doran Martell still means to join her to the family. May as well nickname Dany the world's most eligible bachelor-ette.