Land of the Elderlings and the Old Empire *all books*

[Provost]

Right, so this covers information from all the trilogies.

Spoiler

The domain of the Elderlings extended from Aslevjal to Frengong (or Trehaug). Fool’s Errand shows that it included the Duchies. In the Liveship Traders, Althea says that the people of the Six Duchies get married before rocks. Brashen corrects her with the Duchies’ term ‘witness stones’, so Bingtown does not have anything comparable, meaning that Frengong may have been the southernmost part of the elderling realm.

In Ship of Magic, Kennit’s ring speaks of the ‘old empire’ from before Jamaillia when he recites the Kytris poem. It’s also worth pointing out that the title ‘Satrap’ suggests a governor of part of a realm rather than the whole nation. Could the land of Jamaillia be a surviving part of this older empire?

Have you all read the short story that tells of the colonists coming to the rain wilds? The Carrock woman speaks in disgust of the harlot queens, almost as if the Jamaillians retain a few bitter memories of the Elderlings. Could the ‘old empire’ have been the race of men described in City of Dragons who tried to destroy the dragons?

[Farseer]

Well met and welcome to thePlenty, Provost!

I am so mad that not even the little rant guy can convey the boiling of my blood ... ! I have just spent over half and hour responding to this and them lost the lot after our car inverter decided to drop out (I am in the passenger seat on our trip home from the coast). So, as I am about to lose internet reception for a time (a black spot coming up), I will have to give the bare bones:

We've chatted about this before and I even had to recheck your post twice as I thought you might be a spammer who has just cut and pasted from an old conversation (sorry but it has happened before! ). If you do a search on the Old Empire, that may bring some of them up?

Also don't forget the black-stoned area of the monastery where the priests of Sa created their works eg Wintrow and his stained-glass window which depicted the serpent, tree and dragon. These creations, for me, are the same as those created by the Elderlings of old and the black stone screamed memory stone to me. This proves (until Robin disproves it! ) that not only is the Skill worked in the region, and this a magic used by Elderlings, but the presence of the black stone alone also shows that Elderlings would have inhabited the region.

Also, we should not discount the priests of Sa when we consider who may be responsible for the fall of the Elderlings. The White Prophet and the Catalyst are working toward the return of Elderlings and dragons to the world and yet the priests of Sa consider the 'religion' and existence/writings of the White Prophet, and the prophecies fulfilled by the Catalyst, as blasphemy...hence it may well have been they who wanted to eliminate them from the world. We only have to look to our own world to see the role of religious or holy wars. I have long felt it likely that the region and the seat of the Pearl Throne has much more of an historical role than it may first appear.

*City of Dragons spoiler (from the publisher pre-released chapters)*

Spoiler

The Duke of Chalced’s throne sits exactly where (five?) once Skill Pillars once stood so why should not the Pearl Throne sit where once Elderlings also existed. While there may not be, there is a yet-to-be-discovered, significant reason why the Pearl Throne exists where it does.

Further, the memory stone dragon that exists on Barren Island (the one Althea, or ‘Athel’, saw with the wizardwood arrow embedded in its chest) and Barren Island is well within the vicinity of region. It is obvious from the existence of this downed dragon that there had been some conflict between Elderlings and others in the past.

If any of it, even the destruction of the simulacra dragon, did have something to do with the priests of Sa, possibly they may have been in the employ of the Pale Woman? Though she herself was supposedly the White Prophet, it certainly would have suited her purposes to have the priests denounce the WP ‘religion’ given that she knew Beloved (Fool) opposed her. She knew that he would try to make trouble for her in the world and it would work best if most ignored his prophecies? Even if it is not the PW behind it, a prior conflict and Elderling presence in the region is near guaranteed for me (except that Robin could prove me all wrong! ).

It is also interesting to note that, as well as King Shrewd, Satrap Cosgo (sorry, think we chatted about this before in those previous discussions too) was obsessed with the religion of the WP. He obtained scrolls and whatever information he could, and it was this obsession that led him to assisting Fool and having him within his court. No doubt this interest in the WP writings displeased the priests of Sa, especially as the Satrap is said to be directly ‘of Sa’ himself. They’d likely have wanted to be rid of Fool and his blasphemy as soon as possible. After all, not only was he speaking blasphemy but their Satrap was listening, and their own jobs or teachings would have been put on the back-burner in comparison...not unlike Jesus turning up ‘speaking blasphemy’ and taking attention and status away from the Pharisees. Of course they would want to do away with him and his so-called teachings, just as the priests of Sa would want to be rid of the WP or any such teachings/prophecies...with or without the possible influence of the PW. Of course, they may not have even known of Fool's true identity, just as though in Buckkeep did not. Shrewd did know of Fool's farseeing ability, and used it to his advantage at times, but he did not trumpet this about.

All only thoughts and theories though!

Still, I firmly believe that the priests of Sa and the entire region of the Pearl Throne do have a significant role in this somewhere and have firm current and historical links to Elderlings.

I am recalling something about a link between the Old Empire and also the Empire or ruling seat of the Mountain Kindgdom but I will have to think more on that. Better post before I lose it all again!

I have dropped out about eight times and had to repeat most of this just as many so forgive the typos etc!

[Provost]

An hour and a half? That's got to be irritating as anything.

Did a lot of searching on 'old empire' but the engine kept selecting words like 'bold'. Ah, well. Anyway you've all put down a multitude of posts to sift through.

I just reread Ship of Magic and didn't realize that Wintrow's stained glass making took place in a memory stone chamber, although that certainly explains his subject matter. Still, there's the fact that the memory stone dragon on barren island has a wizardwood arrow sticking out of it. Could an elderling have shot it down? Might the dragon's enemies have figured out to create the living skill sculptures? Normal humans never were allowed access to wizardwood when the elderlings reigned.

Also, did the pale woman exist as far back as the fall of the dragons? Wasn't that Prilkop's era? Remember: only on white prophet per age.

[fool-ish]

Hello and welcome Provost!

This lot is gonna take some thinking about and as I'm re-reading LST (The Mad Ship at the moment) I'll not say too much until I'm sure I know what I'm talking about However, I wasn't aware that the room Wintrow worked his stained glass in was built of memory stone either, fancy missing that! And I envisioned the 'dragon' on the Barrens as a cruder version of those Fitz and pals came across in the garden. I'll have to go back and read that poem Kennit's charm recited too.

[Farseer]

Also don't forget the black-stoned area of the monastery where the priests of Sa created their works eg Wintrow and his stained-glass window which depicted the serpent, tree and dragon. These creations, for me, are the same as those created by the Elderlings of old and the black stone screamed memory stone to me. This proves (until Robin disproves it! ) that not only is the Skill worked in the region, and this a magic used by Elderlings, but the presence of the black stone alone also shows that Elderlings would have inhabited the region.

Oh, heck! I'm home now and have just re-read this! *sigh* The 'black' aspect of the stone is theory only and I shouldn't have included that word in my post in such a manner as it sounds 'cannon', like I've taken it directly from the text. I should have said something like, "If it is black as I assume." I only assume that it is memory stone and have thought it to be memory stone for so long I've just written here as if it IS. This is why you'd have overlooked it as it's not really there...outside of my theory-spinning! Sorry. If the 'thul beings were here, they'd be rolling their eyes saying things like, "there you go again making it up as you go, Farseer."

I will have to check to confirm but I am pretty sure that nothing is actually stated about it being black, let alone streaked with silver or something that may suggest that it truly is memory stone. It's just stated as being 'stone' and I simply believe that it must be memory stone due to the results of being in proximity to it. As I said, Wintrow becomes more clear-headed the further away from it he gets and he and the others do go there to construct their artworks...and I find it very difficult to believe that this is merely coincidence that it is to this area that they go to create their works. I assume that it allows them to Skill better, possibly similar in that Skilling comes so much easier for Fitz the closer he is to the Skill Road/Kelsingra etc. Aside from the stone though, even if it is not memory stone, I still believe that the priests use the Skill that is used to craft the windows, pots, baskets etc.

Totally on a tangent, but going on from a couple of other comments I've made here and elsewhere...as soon as I came across Wintrow and his tree (forgetting his serpent and dragon for the moment as I will come back to those and more), I couldn't help but think of the trees that Fitz and Nighteyes came across in the mountains that gave off a Wit presence. Fitz had some said something like, "I never thought to be distained by a tree." I also had to think of the fact that Eyod forbade anyone to cut down trees in the Mountain Kingdom. There is a link there, I believe, to Wintrow's tree.

More to come as a response...SO MUCH MORE (not to mention that I really want to reply to a post from Narya in another thread!)...but *sigh* I have jobs that I have to do...

I mainly just needed to clarify that little bit about the 'black' so you don't go thinking that it definitely is memory stone. I strongly believe that it is and therefore I also believe it comes from prior Elderling occupation of the region. I will reference the stone from the text later, as well as try and add some things re the Old Empire.

Oh to be able to drown myself in these memories...

[fool-ish]

It's just gotta be memory stone...I won't settle for anything less!

How do you remember all this stuff Farseer? I remember nothing about 'witted trees' and therefore didn't see Wintrow's tree as significant compared to the rest of his stained glass. Though it's great to come on here and find these little nuggets of information, at the same time I chastise myself for being a rubbish reader and not paying enough attention to details.

[Farseer]

It's just gotta be memory stone...I won't settle for anything less!

My thoughts exactly!

How do you remember all this stuff Farseer?

Addiction?

[fool-ish]

It's just gotta be memory stone...I won't settle for anything less!

My thoughts exactly!

How do you remember all this stuff Farseer?

Addiction?

The best of addictions though!