Ampy's Farseer, Liveship & Tawny Man Thread (spoilers)

[o0Ampy0o]

Hey everyone,

I just completed the Liveship trilogy after reading the Farseer then Tawny Man trilogies first. I looked around here and it appears that I am in danger of seeing spoilers. I do not want to see things that will ruin my experience of other Hobbb stories so I have created this thread for safe discussions of the three trilogies in the title.

If anyone would like to talk about these books I would love to hear from you.

I enjoyed reading the Liveship trilogy. When I finished with the Farseer series I wanted to stay with the Fitz Chivalry character and skipped Liveships. Hobb is such a skilled writer she provided essential information from Liveships in the Tawny Man series so you were not missing anything.

Having read everything in the order I chose I would recommend that people read them in time sequence (Farseer to Liveships to Tawny Man) for the ideal experience though.

I missed out on the mystery of Amber knowing her identity in advance so I would like to know when people started to realize who she was?

It must have been a great feeling when the way Amber reworked Paragon had been revealed.

Even though I have the knowledge of Tawny Man's outcome, Liveships ended with great potential for future stories.

Hobb is such a wonderful writer. I am looking forward to the new Fitz/Fool series she has acknowledged even though I felt she compromised the ending of Tawny Man.

Liveship was written with a different approach than F & TM. I started out disliking several characters I eventually loved. Initially, I could not stand Malta. I was also tempted to skip Kyle Haven's dialog it was too much to take. I hated him so much. He is one character I did not change my opinion of.

At the end of Liveships Amber is talking with Paragon about Wintrow. Paragon responds with an opposite scenario that hits home with Amber. It was the part where the would-be philosophical priest becomes mentor to a future pirate king vs. a would-be king becoming a philosophical recluse. Tawny Man did not end with Amber changing that entirely. Perhaps Fitz-Fool will?

Well, hopefully this is enough to get a few bites from people. I will talk about anything in these books if you want to.

[Valarya]

Hey everyone,

I enjoyed reading the Liveship trilogy. When I finished with the Farseer series I wanted to stay with the Fitz Chivalry character and skipped Liveships.

Having read everything in the order I chose I would recommend that people read them in time sequence (Farseer to Liveships to Tawny Man) for the ideal experience though.

This is also how I read them first, many years ago.. not knowing any difference. I, too, felt as if I hadn't missed much, but I promise you - if you ever re-read the series (it never gets old to me, lol), do so in-order, as you yourself just suggested. You'll find the first book of Tawny man, at least, to make MUCH more sense than the first time you read it.

Even though I have the knowledge of Tawny Man's outcome, Liveships ended with great potential for future stories.

Yes, sir... that would be the Rain Wild Chronicles. It's 4 books (last one comes out this April) and it picks up right where Liveships leaves off, then after the first couple chapters, fast forwards 5 years or so to where the events of the Tawny trilogy leave off. They're a bit different from the first three trilogies, but just as wonderful in their own right!

You'll find tons of threads around here that warn "up to RWC spoilers" meaning everything before the last series you read, so I think you'd benefit from joining in many of those discussions without spoiling yourself at all. Also, the people on these forums are VERY good at putting spoiler tags IN their posts if the thread title doesn't say which books the discussions go up to - so I wouldn't fear too much. Give a browse!!

Hobb is such a wonderful writer. I am looking forward to the new Fitz/Fool series she has acknowledged even though I felt she compromised the ending of Tawny Man.

I too cannot wait for this!!! I think after you read the RWC you might change your opinion and have a few ideas on where the new Fitz/Fool stuff might 'go.'

Liveship was written with a different approach than F & TM. I started out disliking several characters I eventually loved. Initially, I could not stand Malta. I was also tempted to skip Kyle Haven's dialog it was too much to take. I hated him so much. He is one character I did not change my opinion of.

Haha, yes. Hobb is such a skilled writer that you're supposed to hate Kyle. Altho Kennit lovers and haters abound in the community. Malta turns out to be great even though she's definitely disliked in the beginning. You know, I love the Fitz/Fool/Nighteyes stuff so much which is why I went straight to Tawny Man from Farseer, just as you did - but now Liveships is my favorite trilogy (with the last book of Tawny - I call it #9 - being my favorite stand-alone).


Oh... also: Welcome to ThePlenty!!!

[o0Ampy0o]

Thanks for the response. I am seeing some threads now that I can safely read. Initially it seemed that everything had references to books I have not read.

So Rain Wild Chronicles includes characters from Liveship? I was under the impression it was about raising sick dragons deep in the Rain Wilds and had a different set of characters populating it. I'll download a preview to my Kindle.

[Valarya]

Thanks for the response. I am seeing some threads now that I can safely read. Initially it seemed that everything had references to books I have not read.

So Rain Wild Chronicles includes characters from Liveship? I was under the impression it was about raising sick dragons deep in the Rain Wilds and had a different set of characters populating it. I'll download a preview to my Kindle.

Well it continues the story of what happens to the Serpents that were able to make it up the Rain Wild river at the end of Liveships. There are definitely new characters (mostly Rain Wilders and some Chalcedeans), but you see a few returning ones. Namely Malta, Selden, Reyn, etc.

['thul]

The introduction of an entire new grouping of characters (two almost) might make RWC seem a bit harder, but its worth it in the long run. Doesn't make it easier for some that the first two books were written as one book.

[o0Ampy0o]

I'll read the RWC Kindle preview. Of all the different characters and perspectives that Liveships focused on, it was the serpents that I found the least interesting, their conversations were difficult to follow and it was hard to keep track of who was who. Eventually it paid off but it was tedious getting to that point.

['thul]

The dragons are far easier to keep track of than the serpents were.

o0Ampy0o meat?

[o0Ampy0o]

Joost,

Spoiler

Fitz' relation to Kettricken is more one of brother and sister than one of husband and wife.

I think for the duration of the story most often Fitz seemed to think of Kettricken as Verity's wife, his queen, a friend or a fellow Farseer like Chade but not a sister. Whenever Kettricken kissed Fitz he always mentioned her taste and their bodies did experience sex and produce a child though it was Verity occupying Fitz's while he was in Verity's. Fitz had trouble from time to time being attracted to Kettricken as he observed her. He was well aware of her beauty. Hobb carefully wrote out sexual chemistry between them when they would get together.

His experience of Molly was only a young/first love romance. Over time everyone moved on. Fitz continued to grow as he went through a lot of dramatic events yet he clung to memories of Molly. What we saw of Molly showed us that she was no longer the girl Fitz remembered. She had something like 7 children with Burrich. Think of all the experiences she shared with Burrich and their children. It was implausible that Molly could set aside the history she shared with Burrich and take up with Fitz as if they had only been separated, yet alone, during the time between.

It is also implausible that Kettricken would continue to long for Verity who she did not ever spend very much time with. Kettricken was a Mountain Kingdom woman like Fitz's mother. It is common for men to look for traits similar in many ways to their mothers as it is for women to look for traits similar to their fathers. Fitz and Kettricken fit together perfectly. Both admired one another for their character and integrity. They were both Sacrifice. The relationship developing with Kettricken would have been a mature romance between adults instead of young lovers reuniting as the story ends.

[Valarya]

*** WARNING *** Spoilers ahead.

I did not put them in spoiler tags since the thread title warns of content through the first 9 books. Read no further if you haven't finished through Tawny Man.
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His experience of Molly was only a young/first love romance. Over time everyone moved on. Fitz continued to grow as he went through a lot of dramatic events yet he clung to memories of Molly. What we saw of Molly showed us that she was no longer the girl Fitz remembered. She had something like 7 children with Burrich. Think of all the experiences she shared with Burrich and their children. It was implausible that Molly could set aside the history she shared with Burrich and take up with Fitz as if they had only been separated, yet alone, during the time between.

I believe it took Fitz long months of wooing in order to get Molly back. You have to remember that Fitz gave up a lot of his memories about Molly to Girl on a Dragon back at the end of the Farseer trilogy, so he was able to 'go on' in a fashion for many years. But when Fool gave him those memories back, after all those years, Fitz's feelings for Molly were as fresh as if he had just experienced them. This explains a lot on Fitz's side. Molly would never set aside her history with Burrich. She loved & cherished him. But she saw something in Fitz again. And they DO share a child together. There's something about that bond which can never go away. Do you have children? Can you fathom it?

As much as I understand how it happened - and am 'ok' with it, I too wish Fitz hadn't gotten back with Molly. I do love that he was in his childrens lives, though. That part rings very true with me.

Fitz and Kettricken fit together perfectly. Both admired one another for their character and integrity. They were both Sacrifice. The relationship developing with Kettricken would have been a mature romance between adults instead of young lovers reuniting as the story ends.

At one point I would have loved to see Fitz and Kettricken together, but as they both grew, so did their relationship... and it grew to one of mutual admiration and trust. To more KINSHIP, than lovers. I think their bond is perfect and I would hate to see more through them. Even if I don't think Fitz should have ended up with Molly, I didn't want him to be romantic with Kettricken, either.

[o0Ampy0o]

I believe it took Fitz long months of wooing in order to get Molly back. You have to remember that Fitz gave up a lot of his memories about Molly to Girl on a Dragon back at the end of the Farseer trilogy, so he was able to 'go on' in a fashion for many years. But when Fool gave him those memories back, after all those years, Fitz's feelings for Molly were as fresh as if he had just experienced them. This explains a lot on Fitz's side. Molly would never set aside her history with Burrich. She loved & cherished him. But she saw something in Fitz again. And they DO share a child together. There's something about that bond which can never go away. Do you have children? Can you fathom it?

That is precisely what was wrong about the scenario.....it is unfathomable that Molly would not feel loyalty to the father of the majority of her children and the man she was much closer to for more time as well as guilt. Children aside, even after a breakup of a very close relationship you feel some guilt and loyalty being abandoned when you become intimate with another person, unless you were unfaithful all along. Molly was more concerned about feelings she had been betrayed by Fitz than concerns about Burrich. Burrich was not even on the table when Fitz was wooing her back to him.

If we were faced with someone who had regained feelings and memories from youth we would probably view that person as delusional. Even if Molly could accept the circumstances that rendered Fitz a boy in a man's body Molly was still a woman who had a long history of experiences that included a life of dramatically difficult times with another man whom she loved and had been raising 7(?) children with. Fitz is off the hook as his feelings were held in limbo then dropped into his lap again in full force years later.

Going back to my belief that this was not the originally mapped out ending to this series, I think the changes that included this return to youth in Fitz was part of the patchwork that tied things together in the reworked ending. A possible alternate ending might have left the Fool dead and therefore the whole rooster crown and Girl-On-A-Dragon exchange would have been added as apiece that lead Fitz back to Molly.

I should describe the ending that I think the bulk of the series lead to so the patchwork is clear.