Elderling Creations Theory (Spoilers through all the books and Dragon Haven)

[Farseer]

I am still thinking on our last couple of posts but, in the meantime, what are your theories on the wizardwood arrow vs memory stone-crafted simulacra then, particularly if we are thinking that wizardwood is pretty much made of the same stuff as memory stone?

Why does a wizardwood arrow kill a stone dragon (as happened with Swift/Kebal Rawbread's dragon on Aslevjal and also the dragon that Althea etc saw on the island in The Barrens, with an arrow sticking out of its chest)?

Is it because wizardwood is dragon-wrought with mostly dragon memories (if you know what I mean?!) whereas a simulacra is an Elderling/human/coterie-wrought artform with mostly human memories? Wizardwood is obviously a danger to humans/Elderlings and human memories in any form eg as an arrow, powdered and placed in a stew etc, much as the Skill is a danger them? I am sort-of cross-posting this last little point from our chat in the 'character' thread (!!) but I can't help it...there are threads everywhere, like the destinies that Fool speaks of, or like getting lost in the Skill River!

[Farseer]

Is it because wizardwood is dragon-wrought with mostly dragon memories (if you know what I mean?!) whereas a simulacra is an Elderling/human/coterie-wrought artform with mostly human memories?

I think this is the distinction between wizardwood and memory stone...while they are essentially both made out of the same 'stuff', there is a difference:

ground memory stone + dragon saliva (dragon memories) = wizardwood, and only then human anmas/blood/memories etc are able to be added

memory stone blocks + human anma/memories/blood = Elderling/coterie artforms eg the Skill Road, simulacra, Elderling cities such as Trehaug and Cassarick

I've just had a thought...why is it that those who entered the buried ruins of Trehaug, or even Fitz on his first visit to Kelsingra, felt like they were 'drowning in the memories' whereas when Fitz went into the Elderling city in Aslevjal, he was able to keep his wits about him? Obviously he heard things and felt things, and this is especially made apparent when Thick joined him there on their way to the Skill pillar which took them back to Bucckeep, but still...is it because of the changes Pilkrop had wrought? Possibly because humans had continued to inhabit the place in a way that hadn't continued with all of the other dwellings?

Back to memory stone and wizardwood :exclamation:, it is interesting to note that dragons lose their serpent memories once they emerge from their cocoons (as was mentioned in DK, and this, then, is the reason why the dragons still managed to be confused by Tarman, despite having had so much previous interaction with Vivacia and Paragon when in their serpent form...it must also be the reason why they require a 'She Who Remembers' to give them back their serpent memories after hatching on Others island?)

Hmm...still thinking...!

[Lord Punctual]

Hi, there are a couple of points I'd like to add.

For one thing, Others aren't changed Dragons, they are changed Sea Serpents, are they not? I see to remember that the Others Island was the beach where Dragons laid their eggs, so presumably when a abomination hatches, it lives on the island. Presumably, Others aren't able to swim freely out in the ocean like serpents can. So, I think this puts the Others' treatment of She Who Remembers in a somewhat different light. As (altered) larval dragons, the Others must want to congregate around She Who Remembers as much as the serpents do. Since they couldn't follow her out into the ocean and to the Rain Wild River to cocoon, they locked her up in that cave so she couldn't get away. (For that matter, what would hatch if an Other spun a cocoon?)

Second - the Skill is said to occur when the blood of people from the out islands mingles with that of people from the mainland. As there is an elderling city in the out islands, why doesn't the skill crop up in those people? I think there is more to the skill than it just being a side effect of contact with dragons - otherwise, surely it would have appeared in the Rain Wilds at some point.

About Fitz and the skill road. Kettle was a much more experienced Skill user, and she didn't have any of his drifting problems. So, I think we can chalk his trouble around the memory stone up as relating to his inexperience. That, or it's what happens when you mingle the greater magics.

[Farseer]

(For that matter, what would hatch if an Other spun a cocoon?)

The mind boggles ...reproducing Others is not something I've even given a thought to however I did wonder about how they managed to replenish their numbers between the time that She Who Remembers killed many of them when she escaped and the time that Fitz and Dutiful made their way there through the Skill pillar...SWR even seemed to think that she had killed "them all" but she may have only been referring to all of those who had made their way down to the beach...will think on that some!

I think there is more to the skill than it just being a side effect of contact with dragons - otherwise, surely it would have appeared in the Rain Wilds at some point.

I too think that the Skill is more than just a side effect of dragon contact (also of Sa etc) but I am also of the belief that the Skill did appear in the Rain Wilds early on but it was not and still is not 'known' as Skill (a couple of other posts elsewhere reflect my thoughts on this)...if it is the Skill that allowed Fitz to bring forth the memories locked previously into the memory stone at Kelsingra and also upon the Skill Road etc, then it could also stand to reason that it was the Skill that was being experienced/harnessed by ones such as Lady Carrock, Reyn and Malta etc in Trehaug?

There were tales told in both Homecoming and LST that certain ones in the RW were known to have died drowning in the memories of the city (I am pretty certain that even Reyn's father was one such Rain Wilder, and that is why the remaining members of the Khuprus family are so protective of Reyn?). I can't think of the wording but it made the state of these 'drowned' RW people sound very much like that of a Six Duchies person who had drowned or been lost in the Skill River (eg sitting there, knowing nothing, acting as a drooling babe)?

---

As (altered) larval dragons, the Others must want to congregate around She Who Remembers as much as the serpents do. Since they couldn't follow her out into the ocean and to the Rain Wild River to cocoon, they locked her up in that cave so she couldn't get away.

Wow, and YES, this is such a terrific point, Lord Punctual! As with Chrischa's comment elsewhere about Kyle not being able to go against what he knew, why would the Others be any different?! It is their very nature to want to seek the company of SWR! That sure puts a different spin on the thought they really are Abominations just out to advance themselves...I love it !

[Chrischa]

I too think that the Skill is more than just a side effect of dragon contact (also of Sa etc) but I am also of the belief that the Skill did appear in the Rain Wilds early on but it was not and still is not 'known' as Skill (a couple of other posts elsewhere reflect my thoughts on this)...if it is the Skill that allowed Fitz to bring forth the memories locked previously into the memory stone at Kelsingra and also upon the Skill Road etc, then it could also stand to reason that it was the Skill that was being experienced/harnessed by ones such as Lady Carrock, Reyn and Malta etc in Trehaug?

I found Selden Vestrits' reaction when he came to Buckkeep very telling; when Fitz and Dutiful Skilled to each other, Selden startled as if he suddenly heard voices in his head and didn't know where they came from.

So my thought is that everyone in that world has the Skill to some extent, but they don't even know anything is going on. The Outislanders repress it as dirty magic, the Jamaillans (and with them all the lands under their influence) see it as communications with Sa, and the Rain Wilds simply don't know what it is. I believe the Six Duchies is the only land that has even recognized that there is such a thing as the Skill, and they are the only ones who have actively pursued any training in it.

Very good point indeed about She Who Remembers and the Others, that makes so much sense!

[Farseer]

I found Selden Vestrits' reaction when he came to Buckkeep very telling; when Fitz and Dutiful Skilled to each other, Selden startled as if he suddenly heard voices in his head and didn't know where they came from.

Yes! One of my favourite parts of all of the books but especially so when Selden encountered Fitz in the hallway and told him that Tintaglia had known he was lying regarding his status/level of importance...having Selden refer to Fitz as "someone of significance" in both his AND Tintaglia's eyes was exciting stuff!!

So my thought is that everyone in that world has the Skill to some extent, but they don't even know anything is going on. The Outislanders repress it as dirty magic, the Jamaillans (and with them all the lands under their influence) see it as communications with Sa, and the Rain Wilds simply don't know what it is. I believe the Six Duchies is the only land that has even recognized that there is such a thing as the Skill, and they are the only ones who have actively pursued any training in it.

I agree, Chrischa, but I would add that the priests of Sa do appear (to me) to undertake a form of formal Skill training (though they don't label it as such, as do those in the Six Duchies), when they go into their trance-like states to create their artforms eg stained glass windows liked Wintrow created in the memory stone-built area of the monastery, and this then mirrors such artworks as the Elderlings created (sorry, I think this last bit is a repeat of a post I may have made earlier in this or another thread).

---

I finally found at least one of my previous posts re creations via the Skill etc...it was in the Which character is your favourite thread http://forums.theplenty.net/showthread.php?tid=34&page=5 , post #50.

Carrying on...I am very interested in Chalced (aren't we all?!) but particulalry so on the subject of the Skill. Part of my fascination comes from the fact that Burrich was Skilled but was also of Chalced...he was strong as a King's Man and only proved inpenetrable to the Skill after Chivalry's closing-off of him. Without this intervention on Chivalry's part, and possibly even with further, formal training, who is to say how Skilled Burrich may have become?

The use of elfbark is also extreme in Chalced. There it is supposedly used to plunge the slaves into the depths of the hopeless woe that comes in the wake of elfbark indulgence (as we know from Fitz's own experiences) and, from memory, it is also used to foster an addiction of its use in the Chalcedian slaves. I believe there is far more to it than that and wonder if there is not a darker purpose for this extensive overuse of elfbark eg to slyly eradicate any Skill ability that may crop up in the Chalced States due to its close proximity to the Cursed Shores, Mountain Kingdom, Skill River etc?

[Farseer]

Ok, I have so many other theories and mysteries I'm still thinking about from this thread BUT I need to get this question out there..!

We know that wizardwood takes on the memories and/or anma of the lives ended or blood spilt in contact with it eg on-board etc. We also know, through our experiences with the liveships and the Tarman, that the wizardwood retains the ancestral memories of the dragon from which it came.

Could we also say that wizardwood is able to take on the qualities of a person/being and/or the personality traits of a particular person/being in whose shape the wizardwood has been carved? If this made you go , hopefully this example will enlighten you!

Remember when Paragon fought the Chalcedean warships with his battle-axe? Remember, too, that all on-board were frightened at his unusual display of violence and anger that could not be stopped until Etta screamed at him about the baby?

Well, my question is...when Paragon was carved in the shape of Fitz, did he somehow take on some of Fitz's personality traits? His actions with the battle-axe most definitely put me in mind of Fitz when he was in the middle of a berserker episode (like on Antler Island or when the Forged ones attacked the little girl in Buck).

Added to this, it was intriguing that Paragon himself acknowledged that he was made of himself (Paragon, which included Kennit and members of the Vestrit family etc), his two dragons and he who Amber carved him in the shape of (Fitz).

As well as the example of Paragon, we have all of the liveships who took on traits to suit the gender etc of the shape in which they were carved...eg Vivacia was carved as a female and exhibited more feminine traits; Kendry was carved as a male and exhibited masculine traits, despite both having been quickened via the anmas of both male and female humans OR, is it because Vivacia would have been a queen dragon that she was feminine, and Kendry a drake and therefore masculine?

As an aside, the background on the word 'berserker' is interesting in that it apparently arose from the habit of Norsemen wearing pelts into battle eg that of a bear or even a wolf etc...isn't it an amazing connection that Fitz almost literally wore the pelt of a wolf into his battles ?! I wonder if Robin knew of this possible background?!

[Nuytsia]

I'm not sure.... I don't feel I have enough examples of wizardwood being carved into the shape of actual specific people to know if this is definitely the case I suppose. I guess you're saying if the carver has someone in mind while carving they are passing on those traits to the 'wood' as they carve?
I guess the liveships could be seen as having masculine/feminine traits, but people are notorious for seeing what they expect to and so those characters in the books who see a female/male figurehead will tend to ascribe feminine/masculine traits to that personality.
I think when Paragon went nuts with the axe I just put it down to his increasing instability (or simply the potential violence of a predator) as his dragon part came to the fore more and more. But what you say makes sense too, about Fitz being in a beserk state.
But if Paragon actually SAID that part of him was from 'he who Amber carved him in the shape of' then I suppose that's pretty good evidence!
I guess we won't be seeing too many new things carved into wizardwood anyhoo .....
(or will we? bwahahahaha!!! .....ok nah not likely)

[Mervi]

Just a quick thought - I've only glanced through the latest messages in this topic, but we do have another example of wizardwood carved to someone's shape - Kennit's charm! And that piece of wood certainly did NOT not take on Kennit's characteristics at all.

[Chrischa]

Just a quick thought - I've only glanced through the latest messages in this topic, but we do have another example of wizardwood carved to someone's shape - Kennit's charm! And that piece of wood certainly did NOT not take on Kennit's characteristics at all.

Ah, of course! That fascinating little piece of wizardwood. It had enough of a spirit of it's own to despise the task it was being put to, yet seemed compelled to help Kennit.
Makes you wonder if it had been something else before it became Kennit's charm?