Elderling Creations Theory (Spoilers through all the books and Dragon Haven)

['thul]

That is true. But do not forget that the Wit is said to stem from the two original tribes of man. And the wit is without doubt related to the Elderlings...

[assasin]

It could be that the tribes are just a fable.

And the wit is without doubt related to the Elderlings...

Do you have any evidence for this. Becuase it seems to me that they are completely different. Yet related at the same time. Dragons and skill users seem to get their magic from the skill river. Old Blood from the life around them. I think that the wit ocurred naturally as a connection to life.

Though I don't think its impossible that the skill riverevolved from life. No evidence to pdove that. I think their connection is more at a primal level. Though I can't really put my finger on it.

It might just be that the skill [or the original dragons powers] is the dragons innate magic and the old blood the humans. You must admit, old blood companions are very close to elderlings in a sense of purpose [ie as a companion to old blood/dragon]. If the two tribes tale is true than it would compliment this theory.

['thul]

All indications are that those villages are a fable. Fables do often tend to contain some grains of truth, though. The Witted once lived openly in their own villages, free from persecution. (the piebald prince changed that)


As for the connections between Elderlings and the Wit...

‘Thus every magic has its space in the spectrum of magic, and together they make up the great circle of power. All magical lore is encompassed in the circle, from the skills of the humble hedge-wizard with his charms, the scryer with his bowl or crystal, the bestial magic of the Wit and the celestial magic of the Skill, and all the homely magics of hearth and heart. All can be placed as I have shown them, in a great spectrum, and it must be clear to any eye that a common thread runs through all of them. But that is not to say that any user can or should attempt to master the full circle of magic. Such a wide sweep of the art is not given to any mortal, and with good reason. No one is meant to be master of all powers. A Skill-user may expand his expertise to scrying, and there have been tales of beast-magickers who had mastered some of the fire- magic- and water-finding skills of the hedgewizards. As illustrated by the chart, each of these lesser arcs of magic are adjacent to the greater magics, and thus a mage can expand his powers to include these minor skills as well. But to have larger ambitions than these is a great error. For one who augurs through a crystal to attempt to master the bringing of fire is a mistake. These magics are not neighbouring magics, and the strains of supporting their differences may bring discord to his mind. For a Skill user to demean himself with the beast-magic of the Wit is to invite the decay and debasement of his higher magic. Such a vile ambition should be condemned.’

This is a quote from Tawny man 2, describing the circle of magic...

The forms of magic described here are:
hedge wizardry - Charms, fire-making, water-finding
scrying - bowls, crystals
Wit - animal bonds, repelling, attracting, sensing emotions, activating stone dragons
Skill - thought transfer, changing things by touch, crafting music, reading minds, etc.
Homely magics of Hearth and heart - [not sure about which forms this involves]

An Elderling bond with a dragon is much like a wit bond, only on a higher level. Skill bonds are not as intense as a wit bond is, let alone as intense as a combined skill/wit bond. As can be recalled from when Verity skill-bonded with Fitz, such bond has to be set up "manually", often through direct contact. A witted does not need to touch the being it speaks to. (Thymara could hear dragonspeech without ever touching a dragon, as could Alise.)
Elderlings (even half-formed ones) have shown to also use the skill, and Malta used hedge-wizardry to create her hovering balls of fire to light the way. That alone puts three of the 5 listed aspects in Elderling reach.
Since there is nothing said about the fifth category, it is impossible to say what it involves, though it is likely it too is in use by Elderlings. Aside from the odd mentions in skill scrolls and chade's blind stumbling attempts at it, nothing is said about scrying. However, it is quite possible this is not so much seeing the future (no evidence of this in RotE), as it is seeing things far away. This would be close to the dream walking like nettle does and visions Tintaglia gave Reyn/Malta of each other, as well as close to those rain wild dream boxes. It is also somewhat familiar in that Farseer name.

Those bits of evidence above would connect Elderlings rather a lot to the whole circle of magic.

a small side point:

But that is not to say that any user can or should attempt to master the full circle of magic. Such a wide sweep of the art is not given to any mortal, and with good reason. No one is meant to be master of all powers.

Elderlings were known to live for centuries, and to a human whose life probably would not go much beyond 60, meeting a mature Elderling (say, in its 20's) when similarly aged, then meeting it 40 years later, at the end of the human life, the Elderling (whose life is barely begun) would not have changed age-wise. It is then easy to think Elderlings immortal. Especially if you combine it with the full power of the Elderling grasp of magical arts.
Then you have a link to how Elderlings can grasp all magic, where humans cannot.

[Valarya]

I am fairly sure that Kennit had the charm carved specifically for him, although I am not sure whether it mentioned that the piece was previously unused.

The other thing that fascinated me was the skull-shaped wizardwood contraceptive charms worn by several female characters. These never showed any sign of sentience. I wonder how and why they actually worked?

It's interesting to think of all the capabilities of Wizardwood.. when you think about it, no one before the time when the Traders settled the Cursed Shores knew the unused cocoons could possess so many attributes. At least I'm guessing they didn't. Who would need the smaller magic of Wizardwood when you're an Elderling and have the Skill + dragon friends to call on though, right?

One other attribute of Wizardwood I haven't seen mentioned here is this: when ingested, it kills you. When Kennit had to chop off Paragon's face, the ship took most of it back in to himself, but he also instructed Kennit to put some in the soup next time the lad had kitchen duties... and the whole crew, Igrot included, died from it. 0_o I wonder why that is?

I agree, maulkin!!! I have spent the last few days thinking on that very thing! WHY, for an example, didn't Etta's skull quicken?

I always assumed the little charms wouldn't quicken because they didn't have mouths.

As well as creating art through sculptures, tapestries and other objects etc, Elderlings were known for their plays and music etc, weren't they? I am sure there was a stage or two mentioned in Homecoming and also the LST books in Trehaug somewhere, where Elderlings once held performances?

I only bring this up as I have just been thinking of Thick. While he is obviously talented in Skill-healing, he also has a significant talent that I haven't, until now, even considered a 'talent' as such...his music. Would you agree that since his ability to create such music is directly related to his Skill ability, it could therefore be an off-shoot or example of Elderling musical talent? As well as his Skilled music, he is able to play the whistle...

While all Elderlings apparently had the ability to Skill, and therefore create simulacra artforms, it seems that they may also have had their own individual and unique talents? eg Wintrow can create stained-glass windows, Thick has his music, Nettle can create dreams, Fitz creates change (not to mention his inks and scrollwork etc)...??

Or they could make simulacra of dragons and make them take flight in imitation? I love the idea that the Skill would bring out different talents in different people, but I have a hard time connecting Wintrow to the Skill as I stated in a post earlier today (or yesterday). I always assumed the people who could hear the dragons possessed the skill and as far as we know Wintrow can't hear the dragon. Rather, when Vivacia was calling the serpents in dragon-tongue and Malta, Althea & Wintrow were in the stateroom.. Malta understood, but no one else did.

I definitely like to think Wintrow is more closely related to the Skill than others, though - and I love your idea that these talents come forth from each person through the Skill.

Now 'thul have had a long-lasting theory that half-elderlings are incapable of conceiving living children...

What makes you come to this conclusion?

An Elderling bond with a dragon is much like a wit bond, only on a higher level.

Interesting. I don't think of it this way at all. Rather the dragon is allowing you to serve him/her and helps keep humans humble and free of war whilst serving the dragons. The dragon most definitely does NOT reciprocate the feeling of camaraderie or brotherhood, or so I'd think. The Skill is just that, magic of the dragons - and I don't compare it to a Wit-bond at all. That's just me, though. I don't know enough about how the Dragons interacted w/ the Elderlings of old & the only thing I have to go on are the frescoes or tapestries littered through the series.. or that one statue in Frengong that Lady Carrock sees of the Dragon holding a basket w/ an Elderling Queen in it.. that description almost makes me think the dragon is doing her bidding.

What do you think about that statue and what it depicts of the relationship between dragon/elderling?

['thul]

Finally someone that disagrees... Good...

The conclusion about incapability of having living children comes from several sources.
One part is the fact that even after the many years that passed from the liveship books through the first two rain wild books, Malta never had a child that survived. The rain wild traders, and to a smaller degree Bingtown traders, already have an unusually high stillbirth rate (or birth of non-human children). The only logical reason 'thul can think of, is that the people of the cursed shores spend too much time in the proximity of the stuff of dragons.

The children that are visibly non-human, are left to die, so though Elderling changes do happen, only the invisible changes are allowed to live beyond birth. Humans have no common tendency towards stillbirth, whereas Elderlings do have such tendency, or rather, have a tendency towards not having many children. The reason for that last tendency is that Elderlings are a long-lived species. The longer a lifespan, the less children there are, since it otherwise would cause overpopulation.

An open wound, as explained by Sylve/Mercor is more easily affected by the proximity to stuff of dragons. These beings believe that can be explained by the fact that it is actively growing. Elderling changes are also active growth, only not following human patterns. Thus the changes will see no reason not to utilize the already occurring growth in a wound.
A baby still in the womb, is also growing, much faster than a common wound at that. Thus logic would indicate that the changes will also occur there. Since a child in the womb does not have a fully functional body already, it is far too easy for the stuff of dragons to change something that should not be changed, preventing the child from being viable for life.

To explain the theory on why a child growing in a Half-Elderling/half-human would not be viable even if there is no dragon nearby, one might have to go down to the DNA level. It is obvious that dragons, humans and Elderlings have very different DNA structure. The two former are stable constructions, whereas the latter is a mix of the two former. 'thul guess that when the changes occur, the structure of the human DNA is meticulously dismantled, with new, draconic parts added in. Until the changes are complete, the structure is still unstable. If your body is unsure of its own DNA, how could you possibly pass on anything stable to your offspring?

Interesting. I don't think of it this way at all. Rather the dragon is allowing you to serve him/her and helps keep humans humble and free of war whilst serving the dragons. The dragon most definitely does NOT reciprocate the feeling of camaraderie or brotherhood, or so I'd think. The Skill is just that, magic of the dragons - and I don't compare it to a Wit-bond at all. That's just me, though. I don't know enough about how the Dragons interacted w/ the Elderlings of old & the only thing I have to go on are the frescoes or tapestries littered through the series.. or that one statue in Frengong that Lady Carrock sees of the Dragon holding a basket w/ an Elderling Queen in it.. that description almost makes me think the dragon is doing her bidding.

What do you think about that statue and what it depicts of the relationship between dragon/elderling?

What you describe in the first part of that text, is how some dragons like to claim the facts are. Especially dragon queens. A dragon carrying a basket would be a way a dragon would be able to move its Elderling, without the hubris-triggered shame of having it on its back.
These beings would guess that statue portrays something that is still beyond their understanding. It is easy to guess possible meanings, but certain ones are still impossible.

anyways, on to earlier parts of your post...
Winthrow may not have had enough Elderling ancestry in him to understand dragons. At least not yet. He had spent quite a bit of time around serpents, but not around dragons. There is no indications that serpents could make Elderlings. They are, after all children. Thus there was nothing around him to let him change. If She Who Remembers had survived and managed to cocoon then hatch, it is quite possible that she might have chosen Winthrow as her Elderling, provided she'd also lived beyond the first months. It is quite likely that Althea, Winthrow and others like them grew to understand dragons after spending more time near them, like when trading up the rain wild river.

[Farseer]

An Elderling bond with a dragon is much like a wit bond, only on a higher level.

Interesting. I don't think of it this way at all. Rather the dragon is allowing you to serve him/her and helps keep humans humble and free of war whilst serving the dragons. The dragon most definitely does NOT reciprocate the feeling of camaraderie or brotherhood, or so I'd think. The Skill is just that, magic of the dragons - and I don't compare it to a Wit-bond at all. That's just me, though. I don't know enough about how the Dragons interacted w/ the Elderlings of old & the only thing I have to go on are the frescoes or tapestries littered through the series.. or that one statue in Frengong that Lady Carrock sees of the Dragon holding a basket w/ an Elderling Queen in it.. that description almost makes me think the dragon is doing her bidding.

What do you think about that statue and what it depicts of the relationship between dragon/elderling?

Like the stained-glass window, the Rooster Crown and Time's Labyrinth, this statue captures my imagination and frustrates me at the same time!

Just quickly, here is another link for a little more discussion on that statue etc in the Homecoming thread. Sorry, I am being thoroughly lazy and just giving links rather than typing!

[Valarya]

Finally someone that disagrees... Good...

The conclusion about incapability of having living children comes from several sources.
One part is the fact that even after the many years that passed from the liveship books through the first two rain wild books, Malta never had a child that survived.

I haven't read all of the short-stories.. and I've only read the 1st two books in the RWC once, so perhaps I'm missing something. She just doesn't have a child, yet - does it mention she has tried and been unsuccessful?

The children that are visibly non-human, are left to die, so though Elderling changes do happen, only the invisible changes are allowed to live beyond birth.

I was always of the belief (and still am) that the humans just didn't know what was happening to their children, so they left them to die unnecessarily. All these "disfigured" children could have been the closest thing to Elderlings for years, yet they were never allowed to live. Eg. Thymara. I wonder if the dragons would be disgusted knowing the humans killed the most dragon-looking children for generations & generations...

Humans have no common tendency towards stillbirth, whereas Elderlings do have such tendency, or rather, have a tendency towards not having many children. The reason for that last tendency is that Elderlings are a long-lived species. The longer a lifespan, the less children there are, since it otherwise would cause overpopulation.

Over-population is the #1 thing that could sway me. It's that way with most beings in books who either live a very long time or are immortal, isn't it? Very low birth-rate. I can live with that.

Winthrow may not have had enough Elderling ancestry in him to understand dragons. At least not yet. He had spent quite a bit of time around serpents, but not around dragons. There is no indications that serpents could make Elderlings. They are, after all children. Thus there was nothing around him to let him change. If She Who Remembers had survived and managed to cocoon then hatch, it is quite possible that she might have chosen Winthrow as her Elderling, provided she'd also lived beyond the first months. It is quite likely that Althea, Winthrow and others like them grew to understand dragons after spending more time near them, like when trading up the rain wild river.

I'll have to think on this more. I like your answer, though.

['thul]

I haven't read all of the short-stories.. and I've only read the 1st two books in the RWC once, so perhaps I'm missing something. She just doesn't have a child, yet - does it mention she has tried and been unsuccessful?

It does mention that, yes. She has, on several occasions tried, and was actually in the process of another attempt during book one of RWC.

I was always of the belief (and still am) that the humans just didn't know what was happening to their children, so they left them to die unnecessarily. All these "disfigured" children could have been the closest thing to Elderlings for years, yet they were never allowed to live. Eg. Thymara. I wonder if the dragons would be disgusted knowing the humans killed the most dragon-looking children for generations & generations...

They did not know, no. All they did know was that the children were likely to have very short lifespans, possibly dying in infancy. Without a dragon to guide them, higher levels of transformation are deadly.

Over-population is the #1 thing that could sway me. It's that way with most beings in books who either live a very long time or are immortal, isn't it? Very low birth-rate. I can live with that.

To take external example, look in the typical fantasy series with elves. how often do you see elf children?


'thul will await further counter-arguments.

['thul]

CoD-level spoiling

It would appear that at least some of the theories 'thul had on Elderlings and how they come to be were true. For an Elderling child to be viable and alive at birth it requires a certain level of development. Thus it was not possible for Malta/reyn to have a living child until after their changes had progressed to a certain point. Had Tintaglia not abandoned them, that point would have been reached sooner.

It seems to 'thul odd that children born to Elderlings require the stuff of dragons to live at all, so they theorize that fully formed Elderlings (ones that have been finished by dragons in all aspects) possibly have more viable children, though the children will need dragon proximity to become full elderlings themselves.

It was certainly verified that not only do Elderlings prefer warmth, but in fact require it for their transformations to get to certain points. The water that Thymara & Rapskal bathed in at the revival of Kelsingra might indicate that they also need water for their bodies to fill out more quickly, though this is uncertain. Considering that Elderling bodies often are bigger than human bodies, they need more fluids to keep them fully stocked. It could be drunk, but it seems absorbing them directly through the skin is quicker.

As for Thymara herself, 'thul believe that she will always develop more willowy than many of the other Elderlings. This is partially due to her gender, but more due to her wings. For her wings to be viable for flight, her body needs to be quite lithe and light, otherwise the wings would need to be gigantic. It is clear that she would need to develop much more to gain flight, as well as practice much like Rapskal said. Not only does she need to grow her wings larger, but she needs to increase her muscular strength in the back and upper chest, the muscle groups that power the wings.
'thul believe the first forms of flight will be short gliding, allowing her to jump much further than others and drop further harmlessly. Then it will be short distances, before eventually (with practice) going further and further.

[Valarya]

CoD-level spoiling

It would appear that at least some of the theories 'thul had on Elderlings and how they come to be were true. For an Elderling child to be viable and alive at birth it requires a certain level of development. Thus it was not possible for Malta/reyn to have a living child until after their changes had progressed to a certain point. Had Tintaglia not abandoned them, that point would have been reached sooner.

It seems to 'thul odd that children born to Elderlings require the stuff of dragons to live at all, so they theorize that fully formed Elderlings (ones that have been finished by dragons in all aspects) possibly have more viable children, though the children will need dragon proximity to become full elderlings themselves.

I removed some of the stuff inside your spoiler tag for this reply because I want to focus on one point.

Warning! CoD spoilers within:

What makes you think the child isn't viable based on the stage-of-Elderling Malta/Reyn are?

I really don't think it's that at all, but that SINCE Malta and Reyn have been changed, period, it makes their bodies less able to produce viable life. I think it's merely based on two things:

1. they are less human than before... so how can they expect their bodies to work like human bodies and get the same results?

2. Dragon Magic is involved.

I stick by my pre-CoD statement that all the babies born around so much dragon-magic (Rain Wilders, etc) are semi-Elderling themselves.... babies already changed to something not-fully-human. Unfortunately, like Greft, their bodies will eventually not work like a humans, and not be able to stay alive. This is why those half-formed need a dragon's help.

I suspect it was very common of old for Elderlings to have this problem with off-spring, else why would Tarman have the memory of what needed to be done?