Others' Island (spoilers all books incl RWC)

[Apricot]

Ok I'm on a re read of LST and already have questions/thoughts that I thought fitted in this thread.

1. I know it has been acknowledged here that there were 12 fingernails, doesn't 12 seem an odd number to anyone else, after all we only have 10 digits on our hands.

2. The teacups are made from birds bones, wouldn't that mean there were tiny?

3. Before Kennit gets to the beach he recalls anicent the story of Kaven Ravenlock who (and I'm paraphrasing here) visited the other islands for "half a hundred years and returned as if but a day had passed for him, with hair the colour of gold and eyes like red coals and true songs that told of the future in twisted rhymes." That sound like a white prophet to anyone else? Also Kaven Ravenlock - isn't Kennits fleet referred to as the "Raven" fleet and lastly another red/blue reference for you to ponder Farseer, Fools eyes were pale blue after all.

['thul]

hair the color of gold and eyes like red coals sound more like Elderling... or perhaps abomination version of elderling, if such a thing exists?

[Apricot]

Oh Elderlings, I hadn’t even considered that. My first thought when I read the gold hair and agelessness was of a WP that had wrought changes and was darkening as Fool and Prilkop did. I didn’t have anything for the red eyes but couldn’t remember what/if the Pale woman’s eye colour had been mentioned. I think Prilkop's were black? I'll have to check.

Gee I can tell getting myself involved in this site is going to mean a lot of referencing to my already well thumbed RH books. Not that I mind one little bit.

['thul]

These beings seem to recall white prophets having skin/eye color that match each other.

[Farseer]

In a HUGE FRENZY to pack for another trip away, not to mention a gazillion other jobs, but, honestly, I think I could live on this computer and still not get all my thoughts down here!

I mentioned something about Ravenlock somewhere in another thread (or at least meant to?!) and likened him to minstrels as well as WPs and Elderlings, due to the 'song' and 'rhyme' aspect as well as the rest (why am I also thinking of the Rooster Crown?! ). Very similar to Fool in this regard. I think I also mentioned that he was obviously Skilled as he had disappeared for such a long time without aging to others (like how Fitz was in the Skill-pillar for a whole month but thought only a short time had passed), no doubt by the same Skill-pillar used by Fitz and Dutiful?

It is a really insightful passage but begs more questions...especially when we have to wonder how it fits in with the Others. Fitz felt he didn't want to go on the path that Kennit had walked on. Kennit's charm had also prevented Kennit from walking upon it. Why? Was it magic from the Others (no doubt he would had to have come in contac with them if he was there on the island for fifty years) that gave Kaven Ravenlock his ability to speak the future? What connection, if any, did he have to SWR? She had been captured for many generations so was she already a prisoner there when Kaven was there also? What connection, if any, did he have to the fabled oracle of Others' Island? While he may have had fair hair and red eyes when he returned, didn't he have black hair and eyes when he went there (can't remember this last)?

Argh! I have so much to add/say on this, especially of something that is really niggling me about the Whites, the old race that White Prophets such as Pilkrop, the PW and Fool show traces or throw-backs of, and their possible relationship to Elderlings. I won't start now or I won't be able to stop!!!

Yes, I'm pretty sure that while Fool's eyes had looked like just the tiniest drop of blue had been added (Fitz noticed it when Fool first gave his 'Fitz fixes a feist's fits' prophecy), the PW's had been white/pale, right to the end. I can remember Fitz saying something of it around the time that she was begging him to kill her?

I have made mention of twelve in the 'What does the name Farseer really mean?' thread, but still thinking on it with regard to the fingernails (like it possibly representing a group, one nail per person or group, or something, rather than assigning one nail per digit?...I just don't know). Just as I think I start to clear up a point or two, I get distracted by another, and another, and then forget to come back!! It's great that we can be here together trying to nut it out!

Hmm...we haven't taken the bird bones into consideration previously have we? Now, you've got me thinking Apricot! I guess I had just assumed that they were an added connection to dragons/Elderlings in the same way that Fitz and others liken dragons to birds eg I think Fitz said the dragon he saw at Kelsingra was bird-like?

As for size...hmmm...

So much more to add but no time! Sorry if none of this makes any sense...gotta go!!

[Farseer]

When people seek the prophecies or sooth-saying of an Other from the Island, they place two gold coins on its tongue. While I think we have firmly determined that they get most, if not all, of their 'far-seeing' ability from the waters taken from around She Who Remembers, WHY do they ask for a coin payment? Of what use is gold to an Other?

I thought of this previous post while re-reading the part in AA where the Red Ship Raiders demanded gold to be paid in exchange for Forged hostages to be killed. There may or may not be a connection, given we know, post-TM, that it was the Pale Woman who was pulling all of the strings at the time, but the "gold" jumped out at me.

EDIT: Sorry, the passage re gold as payment for Forged hostages comes from Chapter Nine in AA, 'Fat Suffices'.

So many threads, old and new, to respond more in depth to, and...no time! *sigh!*

Likely there is no connection (so thus just another of my fanciful theories ) but I can't shake the thought that there is a firm link between the Others and the Pale Woman. This being so, I am trying to come up with possible bonds between them as well as nut out a reason for the Others requiring gold payments...

I put forward the suggestion that the Others received the gold from those wishing to hear their prophecies and then gave a portion (if not all) of it to the Pale Woman. This gold then enabled her to finance her plans to ruin the future of the world eg having enough gold to purchase Skill scrolls from Regal etc. This extra gold sourced from the Others would nicely supplement the gold she received, at times, as the requested payment for the non-return of captured Six Duchies folk. Under both her and Kebal Rawbread’s guidance, if the gold was not forthcoming, the people were instead Forged and returned to not only wreak havoc within the SD, but to also pursue Fitz (and Verity) due to the attraction of the Skill. Clever lady, both outcomes suited her purposes!

Then there is Henja. Her role in Buckkeep, with her relations with the Narcheska and Peottre, as well as the Piebalds, was all part of her service to the Pale Woman. When Fitz was cutting Thick's hair up in Chade's room, he shared Thick's memories of his meetings with Laudwine etc via the Skill.

At one point a woman spoke and Laudwine replied, “I don’t care what is working well for you, woman, nor do I care for your offer. My vengeance belongs to me, and I won’t sell it to you for your foreign gold…”

Padget responded, “Do not forget it was me who rode double with you that day (when Fitz had lopped off Laudwine’s arm), to keep you from falling from your saddle? When she made her offer, I only thought, well, what do we care how they die? Let her have them, and let us use her gold for our cause, to bring the Farseer’s false throne down.”

Laudwine again, “I care how they die! Their deaths belong to me! And my blood vengeance is not for sale….”

Here we see that Laudwine is annoyed at Padget for making an arrangement with Henja to ‘sell’ Lord Golden and Fitz to her (obviously for the PW). As for her foreign gold, well, it cannot be money taken in lieu of the lives of Forged SD folk as it would be in a SD currency and therefore not ‘foreign’ to Laudwine at all. This suggests that it is either Outislander currency or another currency from Bingtown, The Pirate Isles or Jamaillia, which has been obtained by the PW by some other means eg from payments by ones such as Kennit to the Others.

Later, when Fitz saves Civil but is on the ground injured by Laudwine’s blade, he sees Henja scowling at him from within the crowd, appearing genuinely concerned for him. Obviously this concern is due to the fact that she didn’t want him to die before he could be taken to the PW in Aslevjal.

That'll do for now!

[Valarya]

and, lastly, Etta – the tiny figure of a serpentine baby which, to me, pointed to the fact that not only would she mother a child but this child would later become an Elderling

Do we know for a fact Etta & Kennit's child grows up to be an Elderling?

In regards to the baby figurine, I always assumed it meant that, not only would the Serpents make their cocoons and be 'reborn' as Dragons, but that Elderlings would be reborn in to the world again. It could signify SO many things!!

Unrelated to Others' Island, but:

Speaking of Etta and her baby... I was just re-reading the chapter when Kennit dies, and Etta goes over to Paragon to grieve. She's standing on the foredeck with her hands on the planking and asks Paragon if Kennit really loved her. He tells her that Kennit loved her in the only way he could, and then he hears a tiny voice, so like Kennit's, say "Thank you."

I always assumed that voice came from the piece of Kennit now inside Paragon, but this read-through I felt it was the un-born child inside Etta. Perhaps the ease with which this child spoke to the ship means it IS an Elderling?

Forgive me if it's been brought up before; even though I've been reading this series for 8 years+, I'm brand new to these forums.. so I haven't read through everything here, yet.

[Farseer]

and, lastly, Etta – the tiny figure of a serpentine baby which, to me, pointed to the fact that not only would she mother a child but this child would later become an Elderling

Do we know for a fact Etta & Kennit's child grows up to be an Elderling?

No, it's not a fact, Valarya...just one of my many, most-likely-incorrect theories!

In regards to the baby figurine, I always assumed it meant that, not only would the Serpents make their cocoons and be 'reborn' as Dragons, but that Elderlings would be reborn in to the world again. It could signify SO many things!!

I agree that it was to signify the full return of Elderlings, but I can't help and stick to my thought that it has a connection to Kennit and Etta's child. The piece was taken by Etta from the island and I therefore believe that it has to mean something personal to her, just as the items Fitz and Dutiful found were personal to them.

Unrelated to Others' Island, but:

Speaking of Etta and her baby... I was just re-reading the chapter when Kennit dies, and Etta goes over to Paragon to grieve. She's standing on the foredeck with her hands on the planking and asks Paragon if Kennit really loved her. He tells her that Kennit loved her in the only way he could, and then he hears a tiny voice, so like Kennit's, say "Thank you."

I always assumed that voice came from the piece of Kennit now inside Paragon, but this read-through I felt it was the un-born child inside Etta. Perhaps the ease with which this child spoke to the ship means it IS an Elderling?

I always just assumed that the 'thank you' came from Kennit's wizardwood charm which, by then, Etta wore after Kennit had instructed her to wear it before their son came of an age when she could pass it to him.

Forgive me if it's been brought up before; even though I've been reading this series for 8 years+, I'm brand new to these forums.. so I haven't read through everything here, yet.

We are so glad to have you here, welcome!

[Valarya]

I guess it would make the most sense that the Wizardwood charm said it. He was the most concerned for Etta and could speak to the ship the way dragons do.. thanks for that. Thought I had something there, hahah.

In regards to Etta & Kennit's child, I don't know how it could be an Elderling. It won't be in close proximity to dragons, most likely. Do you think? Wintrow will be raising the child pretty much, and he is serpent-touched, and his sister is an Elderling so perhaps the child will be around them all in the future... I just can't see it as well as you can. It's an interesting theory, that's for sure!

Thanks for the welcome.

[Farseer]

I guess it would make the most sense that the Wizardwood charm said it. He was the most concerned for Etta and could speak to the ship the way dragons do.. thanks for that.

Actually, I posted this last in a rush as my daughter needed the computer for an On-Air lesson with her teacher (I almost made her late!) and, after posting, I recalled that I had indeed, at one point, considered the voice to be that of Kennit's. To me though, Kennit didn't ever truly care for Etta while he was alive and so therefore would not have bothered himself with either her or her feelings after his death.

While I did dismiss the thought in favour of the dragon of Kennit's charm, and thus still do believe that it was the charm acting in the same manner of caring for and protecting Etta as it had when it spoke poetry to her and made her cry, there is nothing to say it's not the unborn child. I hadn't even considered it but no doubt Paragon, the unborn child, would already have a firm sensitivity to Paragon the liveship. Something for us to chew on...

Argh! A thought is is niggling at me though...something about Paragon, the ship, having heard the charm, or been aware of it, at one other time, or vice-versa, before? Will see what I can dig up.

Thought I had something there, hahah.

We all just might discover that you did and do! The number of posts beneath my name equates to Hobb addiction, not knowledge or intelligence. The same can be said for my 'moderator' status, which I only acquired at the beginning of the year because I am on here so much!

In regards to Etta & Kennit's child, I don't know how it could be an Elderling. It won't be in close proximity to dragons, most likely. Do you think? Wintrow will be raising the child pretty much, and he is serpent-touched, and his sister is an Elderling so perhaps the child will be around them all in the future... I just can't see it as well as you can. It's an interesting theory, that's for sure!

This is a very solid point, especially as I have no firm come-back or means of justifying my theory (I both love and hate it when that happens...but mostly the latter when time at the keyboard is limited! ). Hmm...let me see...

I guess much has to do with how we each view an Elderling and where Elderlings sit on the scale. I suppose I define it all a little less firmly that I should. Possibly because I have no clue?! While Malta, Selden and Reyn are 'formally' Elderlings already, and ones such as Thymara, Rapscal etc are quickly transforming to that state which is outwardly visible to all within the realm as being 'Elderling' eg scaled skin, eyes of varying colour etc, we also then have ones such as Wintrow, Althea, Thick, Dutiful, Nettle and Fitz etc who are descended from Elderlings (or who have 'the stuff of dragons' in their family line) but who do not show outward signs of their heritage other than the very human black hair, black eyes and dark skin colouring that does not match what most conceive as being of Elderlings...it is more in their Skill, sensitivity to liveships etc that the world could define the strain. Possibly I am very wrong in this line of thought!!

When I think of the stained-glass window of the lady with black hair and eyes that Fitz saw in Kelsingra, it depicts a lady speaking with a dragon. Nowhere though did Fitz mention that this lady had elongated limbs, scales etc so it was as though this female was a human, not what we would consider an Elderling. Such a female human with black hair and eyes makes me think of Nettle, Malta or even Thymara if we ignore the progressive scaling and colouring, and/or birth modifications/defects of the latter two.

Such human-ness is depicted a number of times throughout the books, including the female 'Judge' from ancient days, however Fitz usually observes physical differences where they are present or are apparent to him. While he is often confused between Elderlings and dragons, particularly in the Farseer series, he still manages to convey to us the differences in the peoples or beings that he comes across.

As an example, in the same instance where Fitz saw the human-sounding female within the window, he noted the elongated beings throughout the Citadel of Records and within the map tower itself...all such ones he noted as being rather ordinary though they were tall with elongated limbs and had eyes of varying colour and brightness etc but nothing about scales (an attribute which we most often associate with Elderlings). He noted that the women he'd seen outside all had long, fair hair. I am getting the feeling that my black hair, black eyes theory is clouding my thinking but there is a difference here that I can't quite define! Kelsingra was a place where all races and groups seemingly mixed...it was not just a place for what we know of as Elderlings, and while Tintaglia seems to view humans as 'less' than Eldelrings, it appears that humans did interact well with them, as did even possibly the Whites of old. Way off track - yikes!

Though only 'human', Kennit, was Bingtown Trader born and was around liveships all of his life. While liveships are not dragons, they are of dragons, and contain the memories of dragonkind, and are created from the very same substance that allows dragons to retain their long line of memories and knowledge. On a tangent, possibly their entire existance, and not just their memories, hinges on their consumption of their cocoon after hatching eg what would happen to a dragon which hatched but for some reason was not able to consume its cocoon?

Ignoring my latter point (!!), while Kennit was not an 'Elderling', as such, he did have a sensitivity and was exposed to stuff of dragons throughout his life. Even Paragon, the ship, noted that there was no distinction between he and Kennit as they were one. While Kennit was later not able to turn aside from his vile actions and claim a worthy future for himself, Etta (or so I believe from Amber's words) is and was found worthy of claiming such a future for herself and her child, aided by the wizardwood charm. I'm not sure what form this future for the boy Paragon could take, other than his becoming King of the Pirate Isles, but he may prove to hold a pivotal function in times to come.

The presence of a serpentine tail may not mean that he will be born an Elderling but that he may acquire that status later in life under Wintrow and Etta's guidance. If Paragon, the boy, is considered Wintrow's ("..this child belongs not to he who makes him but to he who takes him"), then he, as Wintrow's child, may also be rewarded with an Elderling status for Wintrow's part in freeing She Who Remembers? After all, Selden, Reyn and Malta were rewarded for their roles in freeing Tintaglia?

Regardless, Paragon the boy is obviously of some importance or else why would Amber have bothered to speak to Wintrow of him, and request that Wintrow stay by his side? He will also still have the stuff of dragons in his line, as did Malta. Still, in the beginning, not one of us could have ever predicted her rise to Elderling status. Possibly the same will be said for Paragon, the boy/man.

We are certainly witnessing not only the next generation of Elderlings being created but also the next generation of the world that will live to see (hopefully!) time shifted to a new course.

Enough of my jabbering, all of which most likely has nothing to do with the subject at hand...and most of which I am likely to contradict in times to come. I doubt I'll make much sense to myself!