Gernia vs RotE *spoilers all Hobb books*

[Farseer]

I've mentioned this book before on these forums; An Unnatural Order by Jim Mason.

I remember you mentioning this elsewhere, and have just realised I meant to go back one day and post a response to a discussion between the two of you! Will do that first and then return...

*troddles off to sift through a thousand old posts!*

[Nuytsia]

Thanks Chrischa for those points. I think I vaguely remember you mentioning the book now - sorry for my memory, it is actually very bad.
I guess I'd have to read the book to see where he's coming from but I just checked and our crumby library doesn't have it

I totally agree that the way our society as a whole treats animals is appalling. I've been vegetarian for a large portion of my life for that reason - it's hard to find animal products that have been produced in a reasonably humane manner.
(I'm not vegetarian at the moment though)

I can sort of follow most of what the book seems to be about, but I wasn't aware that humans were ever exclusively vegetarian? I must confess I don't have all the evidence at my disposal on that one!

[Farseer]

I went to bed but had to come back, before I forgot another couple of similarities between RotE and Gernia which have come to mind...

1. Addictions such as cindin, tobacco, elfbark, Skill, food etc, and the damage these cause on personal and other levels (and also the need for water and food to replenish Fitz and Nevare after the use of the Skill/magic, though to a greater extent in Nevare's case ), and

2. External/physical/developmental etc differences and how these are viewed by society or change the way a person is treated. Also how society comes to later view many of these differences as insignificant when the person achieves something of significance despite their 'disability' or difference -

eg Nevare - his weight gain suddenly takes him from being a solid soldier's son to a glutton and lazy slob. Once he works hard (Gettys etc) he is seen as no different but then it is only due to his size that he receives the labels of rapist, murderer etc..and, yet, he is a Great One and his size is seen as glorious and magical to the Specks;

Thick is seen as a freak, and 'something' to be shunned and scorned, but is accepted and admired once he Skill-heals on Aslevjal and his 'worth' is in evidence;

Those who are 'touched too strongly by the Rain Wilds' are killed as babes and also shunned, as is seen by the example of the keepers, but soon all will know that they have not only found Kelsingra but have helped restore the dragons to good health and have even reached the status of 'Elderling'...not to mention found solid ground perfect for farming, and even those in other regions of the RotE have come to realise that the Rain Wilders are not unlike themselves;

The slaves in Bingtown and elsewhere were not seen as anything beyond slaves, could not be seen as people beneath their tattoos, but they helped restore peace to Bingtown and helped the Rain Wilders with the dragons and by becoming a part of their community;

Even the liveships were 'different' and their own selves were not appreciated for many generations;

The Specks, who Nevare and others came to realise are no different to the Gernians and who have had legitimate reasons for past actions etc;

Nevare himself even thought little of scouts but changed his viewpoint after befriending Hitch...;

Trees were ignored and cut down/destroyed until it was realised that they were alive with the souls of people...they just had a 'tree' exterior.

So many examples...lots to expand on!

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Oh, and also the repairing of the body via the use of the Skill/Wit and the magic eg Fitz repairing Fool, Burrich repairing Fitz, Wintrow repairing himself with the aid of Bolt, Kettle maintaining herself, Nevare being repaired quickly when full of the magic (when he was shot in the head and stabbed in the stomach) and less quickly when the magic ebbed.

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And another...that both Kennit and Nevare took 'prostitutes' from brothels and gave them a chance for a better life. These men saw them differently than the rest of society (as did Wintrow more than Kennit, with Etta) but then society had to later acknowledge and praise them - Etta with her fighting skills and later even honoured because of her title of 'Queen of the Pirate Isles' and mother-to-be of Kennit's child; Amzil with her amazing sewing skills, and what a fantastic mother she was to her children.

And yet another...both Fitz and Nevare who were helped escape out of prison by women who liked to burn things (Starling and Kettle) and blow them up (Epiny and Amzil), to cause diversions!

[Nuytsia]

I went to bed but had to come back, before I forgot another couple of similarities between RotE and Gernia which have come to mind...

Heheh this certainly qualifies as an addiction!
Next you'll be putting a laptop by your bed just in case you think of something in the middle of the night....

And another...that both Kennit and Nevare took 'prostitutes' from brothels and gave them a chance for a better life. These men saw them differently than the rest of society (as did Wintrow more than Kennit, with Etta) but then society had to later acknowledge and praise them - Etta with her fighting skills and later even honoured because of her title of 'Queen of the Pirate Isles' and mother-to-be of Kennit's child; Amzil with her amazing sewing skills, and what a fantastic mother she was to her children.

True, but Kennit's attitude to Etta is a far cry from Nevarre's to Amzil. I am not sure I have a handle on it mind you! But I would probably not go as far as to consider Kennit giving Etta 'a chance for a better life' by any actual intention... In fact she's a really interesting character. Why did she stay at the brothel in the first place? Ok total self hatred or whatever, but then why 'get over it' when she went off with Kennit? All very interesting stuff.
Amzil I didn't find quite so interesting.

And yet another...both Fitz and Nevare who were helped escape out of prison by women who liked to burn things (Stirling and Kettle) and blow them up (Epiny and Amzil), to cause diversions!

Teehee yeah. Burning and blowing things up would come in quite handy when trying to help someone escape prison I guess!

[Farseer]

Heheh this certainly qualifies as an addiction!
Next you'll be putting a laptop by your bed just in case you think of something in the middle of the night....

I've thought about it !

True, but Kennit's attitude to Etta is a far cry from Nevarre's to Amzil. I am not sure I have a handle on it mind you! But I would probably not go as far as to consider Kennit giving Etta 'a chance for a better life' by any actual intention...

No, I agree with you. As with most 'good' things that happened for Kennit eg that he freed slaves and gave them a second chance at life, it was definitely not by any honourable intention on his part...it was more like Fate decreed it that way, despite him and his ulterior motives!

[Nuytsia]

No, I agree with you. As with most 'good' things that happened for Kennit eg that he freed slaves and gave them a second chance at life, it was definitely not by any honourable intention on his part...it was more like Fate decreed it that way, despite him and his ulterior motives!

Yes, I was reading recently that Robin's initial concept for the Kennit character was something like 'an irredeemable villain' and then as the story went along found herself really 'liking' (I guess, finding interesting, rather than admiring!) the character!!

[Farseer]

One thing I found that was an interesting similarity was the presence of a specific balancing force in both worlds. In Gernia we were given Orandula, the god of balances, and in the RotE we were given Fool, the court jester character whose job it was to keep Shrewd etc amused, in good humor, and with perspective. In essence he provided balance, as would all jesters, for his king, not to mention Fitz.

[Nuytsia]

One other thing I found similar was their openness to, and awareness of, nature. While Nevare’s experiences in this regard were helped by those of Soldier’s Boy, I thought that the ‘oneness’ they felt with all things was exactly like the ‘oneness’ that Fitz often experienced via the Wit. That Fitz attested many times that the trees contained Wit, particularly those ancient ones higher up in the Mountain Kingdom, made it an easy step for me to take to accept that trees in the SS series could actually contain the anmas or lives of humans/beings. It definitely made me wonder if it was only ‘age’ that gave the RotE trees their ancient, Wit presence...or something more! Maybe those in the upper reaches of the Mountain Kingdom are kaembra-like ones !
This brings me to another similarity between the two series, but rather to the theme of lives/souls able to be contained rather than just Fitz and Nevare. Wizardwood and memory stone can store anmas, as can the kaembra trees. In the case of the trees, the past knowledge from the owners of these lives can be used to advantage those living in the present, not unlike how the knowledge of anmas within a liveship can be used eg the old Great Ones could give advice whereas Paragon was able to use Kennit’s nautical knowledge and Vivacia could use Ephron’s. Memories of all dragon-kind are also digested by dragons via their wizardwood cases and then used to assist the newer generation.

You probably already knew this, but I was surprised to find out when re-reading AA that the mountain King actually prohibited the cutting down of live trees.... he would only allow the timber that had already fallen to be traded to 6 duchies for the boat building....

Also, in relation to the 'balancing force' , it struck me that when Jonqui is asking Fitz to come back to the palace after he is poisoned (the second time!) she says -
"Shall I take months and years to teach you all I know about balances? For a pull, a push, for a breath, a sigh? Do you think no one can feel how power slews and tilts just now?"

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but do we know much about the religion of the mountain people? Maybe they have something very similar to Orandula?

[Farseer]

Love it!! No, it hadn't been discussed, but I agree! I read both of those parts in AA again the other day and thought, 'Woah' !!! I know that Fool had also spoken of balances somewhere but I have to go back and find the references. I think it was in relation to how the existance of dragons balances humans. Possibly this weighing of balances, or bringing the world back into balance, is one of his roles as WP in the RotE?

Aargh! This laptop's making me crazy so will save anything further re the MK religion until I can get to a keyboard that doesn't eat every second word!l

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Had to try and attempt at least this...when Rurisk went into Fitz's room after Kettricken had tried to poison him (the first time !), he said to Fitz, "It is fully a miracle of Chranzuli that you still live." I assumed from this that Chranzuli is a MK deity of some kind? Possibly even the MK equivalent of Sa and Eda/El or yet another facet of/name for the same being, along with Odava? If so many characters can have numerous and different names/facets of themselves eg Fool and Fitz, why couldn't their god (sorry, think I've mentioned that before somewhere!)? I have noticed that Fool often praises or thanks 'the gods' so possibly they are all different or he is simply referring to the different facets.

I also thought it interesting that Kettricken mentioned that she would demand Fitz's life as justice for taking Rurisk's (if he went ahead and killed him) and it was only that she invoked her kin-right to forgive kin injury for kin that she didn't seek his death to balance Rurisk's (not to mention he wasn't guilty of the crime!). It is as though this balance is a MK way of life, as it also is for all living in the RotE, and even us. You know, an eye for an eye, and all that. It is this concept of balance that made me believe that the gods (Sa etc) became displeased with Kennit after what he did to Althea, and what he planned to do with his own son, that they possibly took his life as payment (as just one other rather vague example that is no doubt a bit of a stretch!).

[Nuytsia]

I'll keep an eye out for the Fool talking about balances when I'm reading through RA and AQ (although I guess it could be in the next trilogy)
Brining the world back into balance makes a lot of sense as role of WP ... rather than one specific end-goal....

Wow I didn't even notice Rurisk mentioning Chranzuli! Good one.... wonder who he/she is. Yes quite possibly another facet of the god/s.
i imagine the people who live where the Fool comes from probably have yet another name for the god/s so makes sense that he just says 'the gods'. Another thing I hadn't noticed, but will now look out for!