The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST)

[o0Ampy0o]

I started trying to think of a clue about the possibility of a hermaphrodite existence in the Realm of the Elderlings. And then it stroke me that such a creature was almost always there – Sa. And there was a quote in the book about duality of the White Prophet gender borrowed from the faith in Sa, so indirectly but Sa and White Prophets were connected by the author herself.

Was there a god encompassing both masculine and feminine characteristics? Sa was Mother/feminine. The Outislands worshiped Eda (the goddess of earth) and El (a masculine god of the sea?).....the Motherhouse was a bi-product of Eda making women stronger so El would not be able to dominate them.

As far as I can recall, any mention of gender in White Prophets was that they would come as either male or female. I don't think references to duality were intended to suggest the ability to morph from one to the other or to be both at the same time. Hobb was explaining that White Prophets came in both genders and typically matched to a Catalyst of the opposite gender. Clearly Fitz and the Fool were an exception to this general pattern. What matters is that they loved one another which is consistent between White Prophets and The Catalysts.

And coming back to the story of Prilkop ...........I think the legend of the Black Man and the legend of the black-haired girl are too similar to be coincidence or to describe different people.

As I understand this, White Prophets begin white and darken when they make changes in the world. The Fool was pale (and sickly looking according to Fritz) when he was King Shrewd's fool. Hair and skin darkened to gold and would eventually become black like Prilkop given enough time and change. Even though they live much longer and consequently appear younger for longer periods the White Prophets would not likely be children with black hair.

And does anyone here know if this news is true?
http://www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/fbrbl...ovel-news/

I think Robin would have come forward somewhere to deny it by now.

This is probably the #1 topic brought up everywhere she goes.

[ArtanisG]

And does anyone here know if this news is true?
http://www.fantasybookreview.co.uk/fbrbl...ovel-news/

It's true-ish. Robin Hobb may (or may not) be working on a book about Fitz and Fool, but what it is, when it'll appear on our bookshelves, or even if it'll appear is still unknown. We'll know when we know.

See also this thread.

Thank you for the link!
And yes, I do understand that the release itself is an uncertain fact. My major concern was if the quote was real since the link in the post is dead.

Some of us noticed. It may not be mentioned here in this particular thread but we have certainly chatted somewhere about the possibility that Pilkrop could be/have been the Oracle of the Outislanders.

Oh, I'm really glad of that! Sincerely. I'm not being sarcastic.
But isn't he Prilkop? which is spelled similar to a 'priklop' which is 'a connection' in Slovenian

And just to be sure we're speaking about the same abstract in the book - the name of the Oracle of the Outislanders is mentioned in The Goden Fool, in the description of the 3 Outislands places to visit, the second being the cave where the Oracle (who is either forever young or undeniably old, or both as an author of the manuscript speculates) lives and the third being Aslevjal (which is why I assume the cave is not on Aslevjal). And I was speaking of 'a seer or oracle who resided on Aslevjal Island' as described in Fool's Fate (though I must admit the Oracle and the raven-haired woman of Aslevjal sound alike in descriptions).

Just as we have discussed the similar, black-haired Oracle of Others' Island.

I understand now that I read the books too long ago since I don't recall the mentioning of the Oracle... Could you tell me which book is it she is in?

And thank you for the welcoming, Farseer! I'm too shy to take part in discussions here but I enjoy reading them.

Was there a god encompassing both masculine and feminine characteristics? Sa was Mother/feminine. The Outislands worshiped Eda (the goddess of earth) and El (a masculine god of the sea?).....the Motherhouse was a bi-product of Eda making women stronger so El would not be able to dominate them.

I'm afraid the idea of Sa being feminine is incorrect. I'll just quote Wintrow:
"For that matter, consider our religion. Sa, whom we men worship as Father of All, is still Sa when women call on her as Mother of All. Only in Union is there Continuity. It is only in the last few generation that we have begun to separate the halves of our whole, and divide the-"
...aaaand he was interrupted there.
And I always thought there is a connection between Sa and the first Elders El and Eda since the image of sailors calling Sa a 'he' and their wives calling Sa a 'she' is somehow similar to the image of Outislander men praising a masculine god and their women praising a goddess.
And to conclude the off-topic of gods, my guess is that Fitz was talking to Sa when he was almost lost in the Skill-pillar.

As far as I can recall, any mention of gender in White Prophets was that they would come as either male or female. I don't think references to duality were intended to suggest the ability to morph from one to the other or to be both at the same time. Hobb was explaining that White Prophets came in both genders and typically matched to a Catalyst of the opposite gender.

Well, but my point is that this duality is mentioned in comparison with Sa who is both a male and a female and that the duality was mentioned not in connection to a pair of a White Prophet and a Catalyst but to White Prophets only.

As I understand this, White Prophets begin white and darken when they make changes in the world. The Fool was pale (and sickly looking according to Fritz) when he was King Shrewd's fool. Hair and skin darkened to gold and would eventually become black like Prilkop given enough time and change. Even though they live much longer and consequently appear younger for longer periods the White Prophets would not likely be children with black hair.

But the woman of Aslevjal was not a child. Assuming she was Prilkop, there's no contradiction to the theory that the skin color of White Prophets changes with time - or even that it changes depending on the fact if they are fullfiling their destiny of prophets. Prilkop knew he had failed his. Why is it impossible that his/her skin, hair and eyes became darker by the time when Icefyre had been self-buried in ice for decades or centures even?

And one more detail to the color-changing topic:
"...with the old ones, I came here. We were the last ones and we knew it. <...> Then I saw him, not white, but gold. I wondered. Then you came after him. Him I knew, at first glance".
So, for some reason, Prilkop - even recognizing the Fool as the White Prophet - was surprised to see the color of his skin had changed.

[o0Ampy0o]

I'm afraid the idea of Sa being feminine is incorrect. I'll just quote Wintrow:
"For that matter, consider our religion. Sa, whom we men worship as Father of All, is still Sa when women call on her as Mother of All. Only in Union is there Continuity. It is only in the last few generation that we have begun to separate the halves of our whole, and divide the-"
...aaaand he was interrupted there.
And I always thought there is a connection between Sa and the first Elders El and Eda since the image of sailors calling Sa a 'he' and their wives calling Sa a 'she' is somehow similar to the image of Outislander men praising a masculine god and their women praising a goddess.
And to conclude the off-topic of gods, my guess is that Fitz was talking to Sa when he was almost lost in the Skill-pillar.

Throughout the Farseer, Tawny Man and Liveship trilogies Sa was referred to as her and she. I do not remember anyone thinking of Sa as male. I accepted Sa was female early on and if it was ever stressed how Sa was whatever depending on who was speaking it was not something important in light of other activities taking place. If Wintrow was the only character to define Sa accurately I wasn't paying as much attention when so many other characters referenced Sa as feminine. Considering that The Fool is one of the two most significant characters in this series, this dual nature of Sa you refer to was not given enough attention to lay the foundation for The Fool to be a hermaphrodite. 99% of the time Sa was referred to as feminine. Besides, a parallel to a god is not a requirement to prove or disprove the hermaphrodite argument.

Well, but my point is that this duality is mentioned in comparison with Sa who is both a male and a female and that the duality was mentioned not in connection to a pair of a White Prophet and a Catalyst but to White Prophets only.

Posting the text verbatim would help here as I only remember the subject mentioned in the context of White Prophets.

But the woman of Aslevjal was not a child.

You initially referred to this figure as a "girl" and that is distinct from "woman" used now. "...the legend tells a story of a girl who stayed young for years and years, whose hair was black..."

...the legend tells a story of a girl who stayed young for years and years, whose hair was black...

Assuming she was Prilkop, there's no contradiction to the theory that the skin color of White Prophets changes with time - or even that it changes depending on the fact if they are fullfiling their destiny of prophets. Prilkop knew he had failed his. Why is it impossible that his/her skin, hair and eyes became darker by the time when Icefyre had been self-buried in ice for decades or centures even?

The White Prophets darken as they instigate change in the world. The Fool darkened all over not just in skin or just in hair. It is unlikely that a White Prophet would develop dark hair and still have light skin. Either that figure on the island was all dark, instead of dark in hair coloring only, or that figure in the legend was not a White Prophet (and therefore could not be Prilkop).

And one more detail to the color-changing topic:
"...with the old ones, I came here. We were the last ones and we knew it. <...> Then I saw him, not white, but gold. I wondered. Then you came after him. Him I knew, at first glance".
So, for some reason, Prilkop - even recognizing the Fool as the White Prophet - was surprised to see the color of his skin had changed.

Separately and together Prilkop and The Fool talked about his coloring. Prilkop would have known from personal experience that a White Prophet darkens after going through the transformation where they are sick and shed skin several times in his lifetime. The surprise at the Fool's appearance might have been that the next White Prophet arrived having already instigated significant changes and transformed to a darker coloring than the virginal white.

Prilkop had to have been gold himself during a period of his life. It does not make sense that Prilkop would be surprised to see a gold White Prophet. Instead, it does make sense that he would be surprised that the next White Prophet had started to darken before he met him. He was relying on his inner vision foreseeing the White Prophet symbolically in his mind rather than a true representation of The Fool's features.

The White Prophets do not receive clear information. They get riddles and faint hints as to what they need to do. The Fool did not know whether he was seeking Althea, Malta or Wintrow until he found Wintrow and by then he had realized through trial and error that it was not Althea or Malta. In the end the Fool delivered a message that was not really that important compared to everything that happened as an indirect consequence of seeking Wintrow. It seems that the hints the White Prophets receive guide them down a path to a slowly clarified goal. But the goal is not the point. The process of figuring out the goal and the process of achieving the goal is the point rather than reaching the goal in and of itself. Great events unfolded as Amber looked for what ended up being Wintrow only to deliver encouragement to mentor Kennit's son. Considering everything that would not have happened if Amber had not pursued that goal, those final words said to Wintrow were just an excuse to make everything else happen. You might think that some unknown future would reveal the importance of Kennit's son but it is not revealed in this series. Looking at what did take pace we see evidence that the world changed dramatically in the process of delivering those words. Whatever becomes of Kennit's son is irrelevant. We do see what became of the world working toward that moment.

Back to Prilkop, he did not have a clear image in his mind of The Fool. In his mind he saw a White Prophet coming. All he needed to see was something recognizable enough to expect another White Prophet. Again, Prilkop had to have been gold himself at one time so he would not have thought "why isn't the White Prophet white? The source of the surprise would not be the existence of a gold White Prophet as though it was unheard of. Prilkop was a black White Prophet. He knew why he was black. He knew what made him black even though he had failed his mission. He also understood why the Pale Woman was white.

['thul]

On one hand, he had failed, but on another he did not. Who says his task was to ensure thriving of dragonkind? Perhaps his final task was to ensure its survival as a species?

Is there any proof that he is as old as the events that tore the world? Or might he have arisen after that? (these beings do not recall that part precisely)

[o0Ampy0o]

On one hand, he had failed, but on another he did not. Who says his task was to ensure thriving of dragonkind? Perhaps his final task was to ensure its survival as a species?

Is there any proof that he is as old as the events that tore the world? Or might he have arisen after that? (these beings do not recall that part precisely)

Pilkrop was the only one defining himself as a failure. He may have been wrong but the correction was not made in the story. We were left to think of him as believing himself a failed White Prophet.

A White Prophet does not typically have a clear enough idea of their objective to decide if they have failed, if we are to go by The Fool's example. He often felt like he had gotten many things wrong yet he managed to do a lot. I don't remember whether Pilkrop said he continued to receive ideas about things to do but was unable to follow through on them. In his isolation Pilkrop seemed to have lost the opportunity to inject change, at least until Fitz and The Fool arrived.

He was no match for the Pale Woman. His knowledge of passages into the Elderling cathedral was important though. Before they had known who he was the Fool and Fitz did follow him deeper into the hallways until they were discovered by The Pale Woman. That discovery eventually lead to the explosive freeing of Icefyer and the destruction of the Pale Woman's skill stone dragon.

As a character in this story, Pilkrop did not take a large role in the finale so I do not think he was meant to be a significant participant in The Fool's mission. IOW, it was not a heroic trio that brought the mission to an end. It was a heroic friendship between two characters.

[ArtanisG]

Throughout the Farseer, Tawny Man and Liveship trilogies Sa was referred to as her and she. I do not remember anyone thinking of Sa as male. I accepted Sa was female early on and if it was ever stressed how Sa was whatever depending on who was speaking it was not something important in light of other activities taking place. If Wintrow was the only character to define Sa accurately I wasn't paying as much attention when so many other characters referenced Sa as feminine.

Truth be told, the quote by Wintrow is the first time in the books when it is said Sa is also a female. Before that, Sa was mentioned either by name or referred to as 'he' not only by Wintrow but also by Ronica and others.
It even didn't take me much time to find a quote:
"...all in Sa's hands.' Her mother spoke earnestly to her nephew. "I believe that He has sent you back to us..."
Not to forget sailors and their colorful curses: "You made our man look bad, and by Sa's balls, we don't stand still for that" (said by Torg by the way).
It's not my fault you were not paying attention when such a huge number of characters referenced Sa as male.

Besides, a parallel to a god is not a requirement to prove or disprove the hermaphrodite argument.

Well, the parallel to a god is quite a parallel to me. And it was you who said:

The Fool could not be this "sequential hermaphrodite" because Robin Hobb never introduced the concept.

I just argued that it was introduced.

Posting the text verbatim would help here as I only remember the subject mentioned in the context of White Prophets.

The quote was there in the thread a few comments before mine but anyway:
"At the core of the White Prophet heresy is the concept that for ‘every age’ (and this space of time is never defined) there is born a White Prophet. The White Prophet comes to set the world on a better course. He or she (and in this duality of gender we may see some borrowing from the true faith of Sa) does this by means of his or her Catalyst..."

You initially referred to this figure as a "girl" and that is distinct from "woman" used now. "...the legend tells a story of a girl who stayed young for years and years, whose hair was black..."

And I also said that it wasn't an exact quote. By girl I meant a young woman but not a child.

It is unlikely that a White Prophet would develop dark hair and still have light skin.

And why exactly do you think that her skin was light?

Is there any proof that he is as old as the events that tore the world? Or might he have arisen after that? (these beings do not recall that part precisely)

He told this to Fitz:
"I failed. With the old ones I came here. We were the last ones and we knew it. The other cities had gone empty and still. But I had seen there was still a chance, a slight chance, that all might go back to what had been. When the dragon came, at first he gave me hope. But he was full of despair, sick with it like a disease. Into the ice he crawled".

I don't remember whether Pilkrop said he continued to receive ideas about things to do but was unable to follow through on them. In his isolation Pilkrop seemed to have lost the opportunity to inject change, at least until Fitz and The Fool arrived.

(Why do you all call him Pilkrop?..)
The continuation of the abstract above:
"I tried. I visited him, I pleaded, I encouraged. But he turned from me to seek death. And that left nothing to me. No hopes. There was only the waiting. For so long, I had nothing. I saw nothing. The future darkened, the chances narrowed. <...> One vision is left to me. A tiny peep... no! A tiny glimpse of what could be. It was not certain, ever, but it was a chance".

Prilkop lost the opportunity to change when he lost his Changer. That is why it is said that a White Prophet is born for every age - before meeting a Catalyst (who is a human and lives not longer than a hundred years) and after their death, a White Prophet is just a prophet with visions of possible future.

['thul]

Ah. It be long since these beings read it. It makes sense that Prilkop was alive then. (its his name)

[o0Ampy0o]

It's not my fault you were not paying attention when such a huge number of characters referenced Sa as male.

No need to get childish about it.

I will have to go back and dig into the Farseer books again to see where I got the impression Sa was matriarchal in nature.

Besides, a parallel to a god is not a requirement to prove or disprove the hermaphrodite argument.

Well, the parallel to a god is quite a parallel to me. And it was you who said:

The Fool could not be this "sequential hermaphrodite" because Robin Hobb never introduced the concept.

I just argued that it was introduced.

It is quite a stretch suggesting that a god who encompasses male/female energy would be the foundation for the Fool being a hermaphrodite. Every single one of us has varying amounts of both male and female energy within us. Remember, the Fool potentially being a hermaphrodite goes beyond mere male/female energy. The idea was presented specifically referencing the Fool's anatomy.

hermaphrodite: |hərˈmafrədīt|
noun
a person or animal having both male and female sex organs

On the other hand (continue to the next section)...

Posting the text verbatim would help here as I only remember the subject mentioned in the context of White Prophets.

The quote was there in the thread a few comments before mine but anyway:
"At the core of the White Prophet heresy is the concept that for ‘every age’ (and this space of time is never defined) there is born a White Prophet. The White Prophet comes to set the world on a better course. He or she (and in this duality of gender we may see some borrowing from the true faith of Sa) does this by means of his or her Catalyst..."

Initially I was sure you were reading too much into the quoted passage. It does not say any White Prophet was both male and female. It clearly states "he OR she." The part about the "duality of gender we may see some borrowing from the true faith of Sa" could mean many things. It is a wild notion taking those words to mean White Prophets can be hermaphrodites. But after re-reading that part a few times I am less inclined to discount the possibility because it is mentioning "gender" which probably makes it a viable possibility.

Maybe it was as early as the first Farseer book that Fitz mentioned the rumors about the King's fool. He said no one knew the Fool's age or gender. Gender was never brought up again. [EDIT: actually the minstrel believed the Fool was a woman in love with Fitz making her the only character to question the gender validity of any role the Fool was playing at a given time.] When Fitz and the Fool had that confrontation after Jek visited, their words were fitting of a heterosexual man and a homosexual male friend. I don't think Hobb focused enough on the Fool's gender to make it something as attention-getting as a hermaphrodite. I felt the Fool's attraction to Fitz sub-plot was a distraction from their friendship. I now do believe the hermaphrodite idea is a very remote possibility that has received too much attention given its insignificance to the story.

You initially referred to this figure as a "girl" and that is distinct from "woman" used now. "...the legend tells a story of a girl who stayed young for years and years, whose hair was black..."

And I also said that it wasn't an exact quote. By girl I meant a young woman but not a child.

Your paraphrasing suggested the age of the figure on the island.

A girl can be a child but a girl cannot be a woman. From the distance that she was said to have been observed, no one would have been able to assess the figure as that of a "young woman." It takes closer observation to see the subtleties distinguishing a young woman vs. girl or woman. From a distance you would most likely identify a child, kid (girl or boy), adult or elderly person.

It is unlikely that a White Prophet would develop dark hair and still have light skin.

And why exactly do you think that her skin was light?

If you read the sentence within the context that it was presented you might have comprehended the full explanation I wrote out.

Again, the White Prophets darken all over not just their hair. Referring to a dark haired figure instead of a dark figure on the island suggests a contrast in tone. No one referred to Pilkrop as "the dark haired man." He was black from hair to the skin of his toes and was referred to as "the black man" or "dark figure" from a distance. The same goes for The Fool as Amber and Lord Golden. Even his eyes were golden.

I don't remember whether Pilkrop said he continued to receive ideas about things to do but was unable to follow through on them. In his isolation Pilkrop seemed to have lost the opportunity to inject change, at least until Fitz and The Fool arrived.

The continuation of the abstract above:
"I tried. I visited him, I pleaded, I encouraged. But he turned from me to seek death. And that left nothing to me. No hopes. There was only the waiting. For so long, I had nothing. I saw nothing. The future darkened, the chances narrowed. <...> One vision is left to me. A tiny peep... no! A tiny glimpse of what could be. It was not certain, ever, but it was a chance".

Prilkop lost the opportunity to change when he lost his Changer. That is why it is said that a White Prophet is born for every age - before meeting a Catalyst (who is a human and lives not longer than a hundred years) and after their death, a White Prophet is just a prophet with visions of possible future.

Thanks for quoting that text. It supports my feeling that Pilkrop no longer had the opportunities to make changes in the world.

Why do you all call him Pilkrop?

It should not be hard to figure out. I have mild dyslexia, my eyes are tired, my vision impaired, I misplaced an "r" in my memory of his name. It isn't a word I have seen before. Pilfrop is close enough for a discussion.


So maybe there is something to this idea. I think it is a better story with the two characters being friends without any sexual overtones. The speculation alone shows how it dominates a story of friendship. I'd rather they were just great friends and not think about the Fool's reproductive system.

[Valarya]

I'm just gonna interject here that while I do NOT think Fool is a hermaphrodite at ALL (and quite fervently agreed with Ampy on his post about the ridiculousness of the thought), Artanis is absolutely right in stating that Sa is most commonly referred to as male but there are several places within the text, especially during Liveships, where you learn the deity is a duality of male/female.

[o0Ampy0o]

Regarding the matriarchal nature of Sa, I have been thinking about this for a few days now. I may eventually pull together a solid post with specific references but I will not have time for a while. Right now I can at least explain the logic that was behind my perception of Sa being matriarchal in nature.

Whether it is in life or in a fictional world of a book, experience overrides theory or belief. We know an author can write in such a way that the reader feels as though they are going through experiences. An author can also describe ideas from a position of observation and/or learning.

There are characters in this multi-trilogy series that take precedence over other characters. Fitz is at the very top. With the exception of the Liveship series, everything was seen from his perspective. He might have described a general belief but his/our experience would override mere words.

The majority of characters populating this series were not particularly religious or spiritually connected. The Fool was connected yet seemed to leave many possibilities open in his descriptions. Even though he was a prophet (and The White Prophet), he did not seem to consider himself knowledgeable and was instead a perpetual student.

Wintrow's knowledge of his religion was not absolute. It was just a belief system. His definition according to the monastery was not necessary the truth. It was just what they believed the truth to be. Wintrow could have described a belief in a polka-dotted god in the form of a large duck, however, if he experienced godlike beings in another form his beliefs would not matter. He had a strong spiritual connection but that was limited to his belief and according to what he had been taught in the monastery. His later experiences with Vivacia and She Who Remembers were completely foreign and changed his perception of himself, his god, the world and life. Experience takes precedence over belief.

Fitz was not religious. He had a common man's notion of spirituality. Yet he went through various experiences that provided direct contact with levels of higher consciousness. When he was transported to Others Island with Dutiful in the Tawny Man series he was assisted by a matriarchal being. I read the series out of sequence going from Farseer to Tawny Man, then Liveships. Looking back now, the matriarchal being who assisted Fitz on Others Island could have been Tintaglia but Tintaglia had not been introduced in Tawny Man up to that point to see recognizable behavior. I vaguely recall another event where Fitz connected with a high level matriarchal being of similar nature.

I had thought that the trilogies contained enough vital information so that it was not crucial to read them in the order they were written which is also chronologically consistent with the timeline of this fictional world. If that was Tintaglia and not a god then the potential to misunderstand the event exists and I may have succumbed to it. I could ignore the countless descriptions characterizing Sa as patriarchal and even the "Sa's balls" exclamations having retained the impression that this higher level matriarchal being was potentially their true god. I think there were events/experiences in the Farseer series that lead me to think of their god as matriarchal. I will have to go through the series and look for references.

To be continued...