The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST)

[o0Ampy0o]

Maybe that is one possible explanation if we accept the circumstances as the way Fitz experienced both.

Here those of you that have read the series at least 2x are in a better position to grab supporting text. I am not sure Hobb would or would not make the connection if they were the same source. I suspect she would make the connection somewhere because it would lend to world building. Meaning, Fitz would make the connection somewhere. The alternative would create a loose end.

One could argue that loose ends are nice and leave room for mystery but it depends on what is left in question.

[Valarya]

I'm pretty sure I remember a passage in Tawny Man, when Fitz experienced a matriach being and, I think it was Dutiful (but I'm not quite sure), experienced the same as a patriach being, Or am I completely off the track?

This would be helpful to find the supporting text but yes, you're correct. Fitz muses that the reason he experienced a matriarchal 'feeling' in the entity is because he grew up without a mother. Similarly, he notes that Dutiful most-likely felt a patriarchal 'feeling' from the entity because he grew up without a father. But I believe that was Tintaglia they were experiencing at that point.

[Farseer]

Fitz had another matriarch experience separate from anyone else when he was recovering from something severe or was deeply lost in the Skill.

Yes, this was in the month that Fitz lost whilst heading from Aslevjal back to Buckkeep, just after he had accepted the kingly role from Kettricken and Chade. The immense presence made itself known to him in a star-like form (which I sat up and took note of given the connection to the Skill being a celestial magic, the presence of 'stars' in the Skill well etc! ).

Regardless of my insertions into the discussion re Fool and the jewelled Male, Female and Serpent facets of Sa, this experience was certainly only matriarchal for Fitz (just as the other experience on Others' Island had been matriarchal for him and patriarchal for Dutiful) as he noted her as a 'she'. That the presence asked Fitz, "You again?" suggests that she was possibly the same presence that he had touched before on Others' Island. Of course, that presence did speak of 'others', so she was only one of a large group of 'stars' (though from memory she was a brighter one than those she was surrounded by), and so it is also possible that he had touched another presence previously but this one had been aware it. I'm for the former though, and so believe it was the same presence.

It is interesting to note that Fitz himself felt that these contacts he had were with Elderlings, and so they were much more immense beings for him than the Elderlings that Fool spoke to him of (from memory, they discussed this while both were in Aslevjal and Fool was giving the Elderling/Abomination illustration to Fitz about the red roses with the white etc).

Nothing to do with anything really but it was also this event that caused at least one older woman to comment on Fitz, during his recovery back in Bucckeep, as having a "Pecksie-nibbled" look and this, for me, provided another connection between the Skill and Pecksies and the well of Skill silver/the Skill River (EDIT: not to mention Fool). Can't say much more for fear of Pecksie spoilers.

[o0Ampy0o]

...that presence did speak of 'others', so she was only one of a large group of 'stars' (though from memory she was a brighter one than those she was surrounded by)...

This would not be Tintaglia then. One of a large group of stars would not be consistent with the last of her kind ("the last true dragon"). Tintaglia was still searching for other dragons and unaware of Icefyre until later. It looks like this being was something else.

[Farseer]

By the time this event happened in Fool's Fate (Fitz being caught between the Skill-pillars), Tintaglia and Icefyre had already met and mated and Tintaglia had managed to force Icefyre to place his head on the hearthstone of the Mothershouse. The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged (Fool spoke of them to Fitz right at the beginning of TM while both were reunited at the hut). So. By the time Fitz came into contact with this presence, Tintaglia was in company with other dragons.

Still, I agree that it was not Tintaglia here. Fitz had far different experiences with Tintaglia whenever he had come into contact with her previously, with or without Nettle, during Skill-dreams, or otherwise. This was something else altogether...

...or so I suspect because, no matter how may times I've read these darned books, nothing is ever absolute when we have her Hobbness doing the writing and Fitz doing the narrating, and me doing my own interpreting (which is why I need all of you to reel me in!)! By the time the tale is all told, we'll be looking backing through these old posts thinking, "How clueless were we?"

[o0Ampy0o]

By the time this event happened in Fool's Fate (Fitz being caught between the Skill-pillars), Tintaglia and Icefyre had already met and mated and Tintaglia had managed to force Icefyre to place his head on the hearthstone of the Mothershouse. The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged (Fool spoke of them to Fitz right at the beginning of TM while both were reunited at the hut). So. By the time Fitz came into contact with this presence, Tintaglia was in company with other dragons.

Still, I agree that it was not Tintaglia here. Fitz had far different experiences with Tintaglia whenever he had come into contact with her previously, with or without Nettle, during Skill-dreams, or otherwise. This was something else altogether...

...or so I suspect because, no matter how may times I've read these darned books, nothing is ever absolute when we have her Hobbness doing the writing and Fitz doing the narrating, and me doing my own interpreting (which is why I need all of you to reel me in!)! By the time the tale is all told, we'll be looking backing through these old posts thinking, "How clueless were we?"

Hobb was finished with this story and put to paper everything she had to say, according to an article I read that quoted her. Looking at this one way the series arc landed on the ground of finality. Anything left out was intentionally left on the drawing board and not necessary or important enough to include in her view.

Yet she is the architect and understands how everything is linked. If she continues with any of these characters in future books she will be working with that genome. The more story she gives us the greater potential there is for us to understand the schematics of currently known elements within this fantasy world.

[Farseer]

Hobb was finished with this story and put to paper everything she had to say, according to an article I read that quoted her.

Despite what she'd said, and very firmly at times, I never believed her...as so many posts of mine here attest to. First and foremost, the plot and the characters never allowed it to be the end. The tale had not been told to the 'The End' point. Farseer and Tawny Man are not separate to LST and RWC. They are part of the same epic, and very unfinished, tale and Changer still had (and has) things to do. He remains Changer.

Without trying to put words in her mouth, Robin's comments came mainly from the extremely negative feedback that she had received, and the graphic fan-fic stories of a Fool/Fitz relationship that she was sent and that were being circulated online, after the release of Fool's Fate. Just as you are unhappy with the conclusion (which, for me, was never a conclusion but a 'minstrel's pause'! ), so have many, *many* other readers been. Many readers had felt that Robin had copped out with Fitz returning to Molly. Rather than Kettricken though, as you suggested in the 'approach to series' thread, most tended to lean toward Fitz ending up with Fool...and the cop-out was seen as Robin being borderline homophobic. She'd turned aside from controversy and gave Fitz the 'girl' rather than 'boy'. So many were miffed.

EDIT: Had to quickly force my way back here to briefly extend on this in that, on the flip-side, there seemed to be just as many who felt that Fitz should have both got the 'girl' AND Fool...meaning that Fool should have finally did the big reveal and show 'himself' to be truly female and in love with Fitz (as Starling alluded to way back in Farseer) and they could live happily ever after with Fitz not having to compromise his heterosexuality in the doing. END EDIT

I really can't stand Molly and I'd have loved for Fitz to have ended up with anyone but her. I think the difference here is between not liking the ending and then actively criticising the ending. To say that Robin changed things is a given, with any aspect of the tale. She has even acknowledged changing details from time-to-time in line with editor/publisher feedback. Did she truly change the plot midway through so that Fitz ended up with Molly though? I would argue against that. Fitz is Changer. He is The Catalyst. A catalyst, while creating change, does not itself change. He was always going to complete the circle and experience life with Molly, despite the prophecy that The Catalyst would never know the feeling of a home and hearth with a loved one. FItz is Changer, and can seemingly change or undo prophecy as well as death.

I have to go...again...but more soon. Sorry if this does not all flow. Trying to type and think in a hurry does not bode *well* for one such as I...!

[Farseer]

I've gotta say...how funny would it be to discover that Robin slipped in here one day, under the guise of being someone else altogether, and here I sat, debating with her about the whats and hows and whys she did things?

[o0Ampy0o]

Many readers had felt that Robin had copped out with Fitz returning to Molly. Rather than Kettricken though, as you suggested in the 'approach to series' thread, most tended to lean toward Fitz ending up with Fool...and the cop-out was seen as Robin being borderline homophobic. She'd turned aside from controversy and gave Fitz the 'girl' rather than 'boy'. So many were miffed.

EDIT: Had to quickly force my way back here to briefly extend on this in that, on the flip-side, there seemed to be just as many who felt that Fitz should have both got the 'girl' AND Fool...meaning that Fool should have finally did the big reveal and show 'himself' to be truly female and in love with Fitz (as Starling alluded to way back in Farseer) and they could live happily ever after with Fitz not having to compromise his heterosexuality in the doing. END EDIT

It is ignorance of human nature to believe anyone could become a lover of a best friend who mislead you to believe they were a different gender while also acknowledging that they are in love with you. People would feel betrayed. They would not trust that person because they carried on a lie. They would never have a chance to know the "real/true" person because they would slam up walls of distrust, resentment, repulsion even. Repulsion, because of the betrayal as well as the incompatible sexual orientation. (Fitz was clearly heterosexual). Who could be attracted to someone they had always thought of as the gender opposite of their own? Even if that friend looked beautiful/handsome as their true gender it would not matter. To suddenly find out that the person you thought you knew enough to consider a trusted close friend was in fact a female posing as a male would end most friendships instantly. You could not feel you knew that person. You could never see them the same way. They would be someone else. You would not have a chance to develop a friendship with that new person. The ingredients for friendship would be lacking. Most people would walk, if not storm, away from that friendship and not want to look back.

Kettricken- I am not 100% invested in a Kettricken/Fitz romantic alternative ending but the shadow king + queen partnership between them I am. I said in my Ampy's thread that the original series arc aimed at a spot but the details of that spot are unknowable. I see clear/intentional sexual chemistry written out by Hobb between Fitz and Kettricken. Perhaps that is as far as circumstances would ever allow but the joint ruling from Buckeep is a definite. The sexual tension between the two added an interesting dimension to their relationship.

Homophobia, Hobb never would have included the Fool's being in love with Fitz. The Fool only had to deeply love his friend, his Catalyst, his childhood family member from King Shrewd's circle. That was plenty of love. Hobb definitely wanted to provoke us to consider sexual orientation and attraction between same genders. She throws in a lot of challenges to stereotypes with her proclivity towards strong women in traditionally male positions. The Fool wasn't homosexual and probably not a hermaphrodite. He just loved and was open to expressing that love with anyone if they were willing. He was also a chameleon out of practicality. When anyone saw through his role of the time it was because he was all of those characters and elements of each were there to be seen if someone was inclined to perceive them.

The confrontation between the Fool and Fitz after Jek's visit was designed to provoke questions regarding the Fool's gender and sexual orientation. However, Hobb left no room for the character of Fitz Chivalry to be open to a homosexual relationship, let alone with his closest friend. It is even more unlikely that Fitz would ever forget about the Fool as a male and develop an attraction to the Fool after learning he was a she. No way!

I really can't stand Molly and I'd have loved for Fitz to have ended up with anyone but her. I think the difference here is between not liking the ending and then actively criticising the ending..........Did she truly change the plot midway through so that Fitz ended up with Molly though? I would argue against that....

I don't think Hobb changed anything dramatically until the very end when she was tying everything up. Of course in order to do some of that she had to adjust a few things making preparations for major deviations from the original series arc. The ending was so foreign it could have been written by someone else. After 9 books that last chapter did not look like Hobb. That is why I suggested she had been influenced by a child, a lover or perhaps found god. Something outside her was allowed to alter the story. Not that she did not write it, although it is so unlike her, but she had composed 9 books of material over years staying consistent then she composed things that were inconsistent with what preceded it. Something or someone influenced her or Hobb independently decided to abort the original plan to tack on a happily ever after ending chapter that played out like a formulaic movie.

Molly- I think Hobb deliberately wrote Molly as a bitchy unlikable person after Fitz had died in Regal's dungeon. The only admirable thing she was shown doing was when she pretended to have the Wit and used the bees to control the assailants in the cabin with Burrich. While writing Molly as unlikeable, she was writing Kettricken as an admirable woman of beauty and poise whom Fitz noted many intimate details including the scent of her hair and taste of her lips......not that I am pushing the romantic element between them as necessary but this should not be discounted. (Hobb certainly has an exceptional ability to pen sexual tension). They could have ruled as queen and shadow king never acting on the sexual tension between them.

[Farseer]

So many good things to discuss and go off-topic with! And no time! Quickly though...

gender while also acknowledging that they are in love with you. People would feel betrayed. They would not trust that person because they carried on a lie. They would never have a chance to know the "real/true" person because they would slam up walls of distrust, resentment, repulsion even. Repulsion, because of the betrayal as well as the incompatible sexual orientation. (Fitz was clearly heterosexual). Who could be attracted to someone they had always thought of as the gender opposite of their own? Even if that friend looked beautiful/handsome as their true gender it would not matter. To suddenly find out that the person you thought you knew enough to consider a trusted close friend was in fact a female posing as a male would end most friendships instantly. You could not feel you knew that person. You could never see them the same way. They would be someone else. You would not have a chance to develop a friendship with that new person. The ingredients for friendship would be lacking. Most people would walk, if not storm, away from that friendship and not want to look back.

I think that Fitz has already experienced this, back when Starling stated that Fool was really a woman and in love with Fitz and particularly from the time Fitz overheard Fool speaking to Jek in Amber's voice. After the latter, he felt betrayed and questioned if he'd indeed ever known his friend. I think he even acknowledged then that he hadn't? This has been a huge issue between the two throughout the Farseer and Tawny Man books. Fitz not knowing, unsure if he should trust and Fool wishing he'd trust and stating that Fitz does know but he doesn't acknowledge what he knows he knows. I think Chade, too, spoke at times of Fitz and his inabililty to place trust in others (such as when he didn't want to ask for money or help with Hap).

As far as 'know what he knows', a number of readers take this to mean that Fitz knows that Fool is a female but it is unacknowledged...a lie he feeds himself...and so a reveal from Fool that reveals it to be true would likely be not so dramatic as if there had never been any hints or signs?

Kettricken- I am not 100% invested in a Kettricken/Fitz romantic alternative ending

the sexual tension between them.

The tension between Kettricken and Fitz was no doubt deliberate but I never felt that anything between them could truly happen. Actually, their relationship is definitely a part of the tale that I have very much enjoyed. Though Fitz and Kettricken were far more 'of an age' than Verity and Kettricken ever were, much of their attraction for each other did stem from their shared connection with Verity. If Fitz had not been joined with Verity via the Skill, he'd never have had intimate experiences of Kettricken to clearly draw on and feed his attraction to her. He'd certainly had no desire for her previous to her times with Verity at Buckkeep eg while he was in the Mountain Kingdom and Kettricken was trying to kill him! .

Through Verity, Fitz at times awoke smelling her smell and feeling the touch of her skin and hair etc even when he was clearly in love with Molly, and sharing Molly's bed. Poor man. Just as it was difficult for those who witnessed the mating of Tintaglia and Icefyre above the Witness Stones of Buck to not be physically stirred, it would be difficult for Fitz *not* to have some kind of physical attraction to Kettricken after that. And the same would be true of Kettricken after her night with Fitz-as-Verity (or is that Verity-as-Fitz? ). The likeness Fitz had to Verity eg Kettricken said something to Fitz like, 'Oh, don't look at me with my lord's eyes', and also the family connection and history that they'd shared would also have played a role.

It would certainly have (and may yet still?!) proven all the old rumours to be true should they have ever made a romantic match. Regal had let it be rumoured around that Fitz and Kettricken had plottted against Shrewd and that the child of her body was the Bastard's. So close to the truth was he!

More to be said but I will have to come on this...

but the shadow king + queen partnership between them I am.

They could have ruled as queen and shadow king never acting on the sexual tension between them.

I believe that they have so ruled and did so without acting on this tension. Fitz himself said at the end of Fool's Fate that he had bit-by-bit wrestled the power from Chade to hand to Dutiful when he eventually became King-in-Waiting. Though he lived away from Buckkeep after he and Molly married, he did play out the role of a 'shadow king' during the years that he spent wooing her, and his role as a 'shadow king' also later took him to Buckkeep often. In this, he has indeed ruled with his queen, Kettricken, as a shadow king.

More when time allows, or my obsession itches , but I am enjoying this, o0Ampy0o. Talking about the books, right or wrong, is always enjoyable.