The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST)

[Valarya]

You appear to be confusing plot with characters.

Okay?

Yet you follow with three paragraphs of plot. But okay.

[finella]

Artanis is absolutely right in stating that Sa is most commonly referred to as male but there are several places within the text, especially during Liveships, where you learn the deity is a duality of male/female.

I just finished LST. In "Ship of Destiny" there is this scene, when Althea escaped her cabin after Kennit had raped her. In the companionway she met Wintrow and Etta and shouted out her accusations. There it says "But for their (Wintrow and Althea) expressions, they looked very alike. It reminded Kennit of the old depictions of Sa, male and female, face-to-face on the ancient coins."

So in former times it was common, that Sa was both, male and female. (Sorry, that I come back to this. But reading this passage, I had to think of this discussion here )

[Farseer]

Great referencing, finella!

[o0Ampy0o]

You appear to be confusing plot with characters.

Okay?

Yet you follow with three paragraphs of plot. But okay.

Valarya,

Duh! [Image: duh.gif]

You have been confusing plot with character in a story. You do not appear to understand the concepts of either. I explained that Hobb's books and trilogies each have their own plots that are also part of a series plot. You switched from Tawny Man to Farseer when I explained how Tawny Man's plot was driven by Dutiful, which you had been claiming was all about Fitz. Subterfuge?

[Farseer]

Looking forward to the school holidays (which hopefully equates to some spare-ish time) and this thread. I'll be back. Oh, yes, indeedy...

[Farseer]

Right. Small steps, and just a few for now, especially as it is now almost 1am here...

By the time this event happened in Fool's Fate (Fitz being caught between the Skill-pillars), Tintaglia and Icefyre had already met and mated and Tintaglia had managed to force Icefyre to place his head on the hearthstone of the Mothershouse. The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged (Fool spoke of them to Fitz right at the beginning of TM while both were reunited at the hut). So. By the time Fitz came into contact with this presence, Tintaglia was in company with other dragons....

You say that dragons had hatched "long ago" by the time the Fool visited Fitz at his hut,

No, o0Ampy0o. I did not or do not say that 'dragons had hatched "long ago" by the time the Fool visited Fitz at his hut'.

What I said was, as per the post of mine quoted above (with brackets with comments inserted herein to help assist with your understanding of my comments),

> that Tintaglia and Icefyre had already met and mated {so Tintaglia had been joined by Icefyre prior to Fitz being caught within the Skill-pillar} ...

> The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged {by the time Fitz was caught in the Skill-pillar}

> (Fool spoke of them to Fitz right at the beginning of TM while both were reunited at the hut) {during their reunion in FE, Fool told Fitz about the dragons having already emerged so not only were they in existence even then but, by the time Fitz was caught within the Skill-pillar at the end of FF, the dragons which had emerged during the 'hatching' were aged even further - made older by the timeframe that had elapsed from the moment that Fool had told Fitz of them and when Fitz had been caught within the Skill-pillar}

I initially made these points in response to your post which suggested that the star could not have been Tintaglia due to Tintaglia being the only true dragon left by the time that Fitz had come into contact with the brighter star among others when caught within the Skill-pillar toward the end of TM. While, as I have already stated, I agree that the presence was likely not Tintaglia, it is not because she was the only true dragon at the time as there were *many* true dragons in the realm at the time. As I have noted here.

(cabin? ....was it the cabin where Fitz lived with Hap and Nighteyes or a hut? I don't recall a hut.)

Yes, I was speaking of the hut/cabin where Fitz lived with Nighteyes. As a North-West Queensland-dwelling Australian, I would name such a structure a 'hut' every time. Still, no matter where you lived in the world, I'd expect that a 'hut' or a 'cabin' would mean the very same thing and cannot see why there would be confusion here. Or maybe the two words only sit side-by-side in an *Australian* thesaurus? Truly, we are splitting hairs here over my use of the word 'hut' as opposed to 'cabin'?

As it happens, after Fool and Verity-as-Dragon and co flew away and Fitz had seen the death of Will etc at the end of AQ, Fitz and Nighteyes did live in a hut in the Mountains that Fitz himself had built.

After a time, and many other happenings, they both also moved into and lived in a hut near Forge, on 'Bramble Creek'. It was here where Starling brought them Hap, where Chade came to seek out Fitz and where Fitz and Fool were finally reunited. You may not "recall a hut" but it was, indeed, a hut...just as it was, indeed, a cabin and just as it was, indeed, a cottage and just as it was, indeed, a house. As I would expect, Robin Hobb actually used *all* such terms interchangeably to describe the dwelling that was the home of Fitz and Nighteyes.

[Farseer]

I did have more to add on those points but a lack of power meant I had to stop earlier than intended! I have now included some text references below my post quotes.

No, o0Ampy0o. I did not or do not say that 'dragons had hatched "long ago" by the time the Fool visited Fitz at his hut'.

What I said was, as per the post of mine quoted above (with brackets with comments inserted herein to help assist with your understanding of my comments),

> that Tintaglia and Icefyre had already met and mated {so Tintaglia had been joined by Icefyre prior to Fitz being caught within the Skill-pillar} ...

> The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged {by the time Fitz was caught in the Skill-pillar}

> (Fool spoke of them to Fitz right at the beginning of TM while both were reunited at the hut) {during their reunion in FE, Fool told Fitz about the dragons having already emerged so not only were they in existence even then but, by the time Fitz was caught within the Skill-pillar at the end of FF, the dragons which had emerged during the 'hatching' were aged even further - made older by the timeframe that had elapsed from the moment that Fool had told Fitz of them and when Fitz had been caught within the Skill-pillar}

Here follows the majority of the passage where Fool told Fitz of the emerged dragons when they were reunited in Fool's Errand at the hut/cabin/cottage/house near Forge on Bramble Creek. The passage can be found at the very end of Chapter Eight, 'Old Blood':

I think he tried to be amusing and lighten my mood, but his own spirits seemed as damped as mine. From anecdotes of the Bingtown Traders, he launched into a wild tale of sea-serpents that entered cocoons to emerge as dragons. When I demanded to know why I had not seen any of these dragons, he shook his head. 'Stunted', he said sadly. 'They emerged in the late spring, weak and thin, like kittens born too soo. They may yet grow to greatness, but for now the poor creatures feel shamed at their frailty. They cannot even hunt for themselves.' I well recall his look of wide-eyed guilt. His golden eyes bored into me. 'Could it be my fault?' he asked softly, senselessly at the end of his table. 'Did I attach myself to the worng person?'

So. This passage early on confirms for (or tells if they didn't know already ) readers that Fool was/is Amber during the LST and it also allows us to get a better grasp of the timeline - while the events of Tawny Man follow chronologically on from LST, the events of Tawny Man also occur concurrently with certain events that take place during the Rain Wild Chronicles, which thus *also* follows chronologically on from LST.

Other than that, the timeline is not as firm as, say the fifteen years we definitely know passed from the end of Farseer to the beginning of TM, so cannot be discussed here without RWC spoilers (as per the couple of 'Timeline' threads we have hereabouts). As it is, the passage is clear evidence that, as I had said, the dragons had already emerged in the Rain Wilds by the time Fool was reunited with Fitz.

A fair portion of time had elapsed though, from that point in the text of FE right through to the point in the text where Fitz is caught within/between the Skill-pillars in FF, and came into contact with the presence, and this is why I labelled the timeframe as being 'long ago' - "The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged". Regradless of the actual timeframe or how we may interpret 'long ago', the 'hatching' had taken place long enough ago for the dragons to firmly be considered as being true dragons, despite their stuntedness etc, alongside both Tintaglia and Icefyre who had already met and mated.

As it happens, after Fool and Verity-as-Dragon and co flew away and Fitz had seen the death of Will etc at the end of AQ, Fitz and Nighteyes did live in a hut in the Mountains that Fitz himself had built.

From Chapter Forty of AQ, 'Regal':

...when the dragons last passed over my head. I came to the door of my hut, to watch them pass, flying in great formations like flying geese.

After a time, and many other happenings, they both also moved into and lived in a hut near Forge, on 'Bramble Creek'. It was here where Starling brought them Hap, where Chade came to seek out Fitz and where Fitz and Fool were finally reunited. You may not "recall a hut" but it was, indeed, a hut...just as it was, indeed, a cabin and just as it was, indeed, a cottage and just as it was, indeed, a house. As I would expect, Robin Hobb actually used *all* such terms interchangeably to describe the dwelling that was the home of Fitz and Nighteyes.

There are many, many more examples of how Robin used these terms interchangeably for the very same dwelling near Forge, sometimes even in the same sentence or two, but these are enough for the sake of confirmation:

From Chapter Forty-One of AQ, 'The Scribe':

The cottage we claimed as ours once belonged to a charcoal burner. It is not far from Forge, or rather where Forge used to be.

From Chapter One of FE, 'Chade Fallstar':

Yet no sooner were they gone than the little house seemed too quiet.

From Chapter Three of FE, 'Partings':

Then, one foggy morning about a year after I had settled into the cottage near the ruins of Forge, the wolf and I returned from a hunt to find change waiting in ambush for us.

I eased our kill to the ground, and then Nighteyes and I ghosted a wide circle around the hut.'

Mishap, true to his name, chose that moment to enter the cabin.'

Fitz even refers to the dwelling he made under Black Rolf's supervision (while living among the Old Blood in between his time spent in the MK hut and the one near Forge) as a 'hut'.

Further, he also spoke of Fool's dwelling up in the MK in AQ as being a 'hut' and the place where Burrich lived with Molly as a 'hut'. So. The RotE books have many such huts, and cabins, and the rest...

[Mervi]

Admin note to everyone in this discussion: please keep the tone friendly. Thank you.

['thul]

Hut and cabin are generally interchangeable terms.

[o0Ampy0o]

The dragons in the Rain Wilds had also long ago emerged (Fool spoke of them to Fitz right at the beginning of TM while both were reunited at the hut).....

You say that dragons had hatched "long ago" by the time the Fool visited Fitz at his hut,

No, o0Ampy0o. I did not or do not say that 'dragons had hatched "long ago" by the time the Fool visited Fitz at his hut'.

What you said is right there. Hatched/emerged, hut/cabin, trivial details really, the point was they had appeared "long ago" by the time Fitz and The Fool were at his house. I don't understand why you got defensive about this.