The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST)

[Nuytsia]

I thought she had the idea that Fitz could be her Catalyst when she was being 'nice' to him, but once she decided to kill them (didn't she? once he attacked her) I couldn't see why she would not just tell Fitz (if the Fool was a female) to be cruel.

There'd be no chance of him ever being Catalyst for the Fool again if one or both of them were dead so what's she got to lose?

(I can't recall exactly but thought she was going to kill both of them, then decides for some weird reason to let Fitz go and torment him with the threat of killing the Fool if he doesn't ensure Icefyre is killed. Which seemed weird to me anyway, cos without Fitz or the Fool present you'd think they would just kill Icefyre anway.)

I don't see any real reason why Fool vs PW should be analagous to Elliana vs her cousin, although it is possible I suppose.

I dunno just seems so trite to find out 'oh it was a woman all along' ...... I mean yes it's pretty freaky to think of two people so badly in denial (for all the above reasons in lots of posts) but ...... still ..... ug if there were some future scene reminiscent of Fitz and Molly getting together I'd DIE! *calm down me, sure that's not likely*
I don't know WHAT I'd want but please not that!
That's the thing about their relationship I LOVE is that I cannot for the life of me see how it could be satisfying resolved, but I trust RH to do it !! (hope she decides to one day!)

ps looking forward to Farseer's thoughts on the F/F self deception - fun stuff!

[Farseer]

I'd DIE! *calm down me, sure that's not likely*

That's the thing about their relationship I LOVE is that I cannot for the life of me see how it could be satisfying resolved, but I trust RH to do it !! (hope she decides to one day!)

I know and I SO AGREE...BUT, maybe the plan is for it NOT to be resolved satisfyingly (rather leave it true-to-life and leave us going for all eternity!)!!! Still, from RH, even an unsatifsying resolution would be satisfying !!

---

ps Am not ignoring the rest...I need some 'think' time !!

[Bink]

Just had to bring up this thread to give my thoughts. Took a quick browse on most of the previous posters thoughts. I see everything mentioned as non-conclusive but at the end find more evidence of the Fool being male than female.

One of the most important information is the initial impression of most people in the Liveship Traders that they found her features not feminine or a odd kind of female. Whereas in the Fool's portrayal, everyone accepted that he was male without much questioning other than his initial pale features.

However, the most conclusive evidence to me is during the death of the Fool. No, my thoughts are not so much like previous posters in that in death, Fitz would have perceived his nudity (partial or not) or his sharing his body.

It has to do with the Fool's presence in the Rooster's Crown (Farseer, I know you love the significance of the Crown). In that, every minstrel could not perceive the Fool's physical form but his very being in the crown. Through his blood, every minstrel perceived and referred the Fool as 'he'. His very being is male.

“He’s here! With us. In the crown, of all places. He put his blood in the crown!”

“He must go,” the bull-​voiced man con­clud­ed. “We are very sor­ry, but he must go. It is not right or fit­ting that he be here.”

“He was not cho­sen.”

“He was not in­vit­ed.”

“He is not wel­come.”

I consider this 3rd party verification in that they did not suffer the bias of familiarity that Fitz or Jek had. The minstrels possibly saw every bit of him as blood is memory and perceived him as a male through his blood.

['thul]

These beings can easily see from having read this thread that the people here will not be able to agree fully on the gender of the one called "fool" or "amber" or "lord Golden"...

There is evidence to support all of those ideas written here, but nothing conclusive.

These beings have, in the name of roleplay, occasionally had roles that were both male, female and somewhere in between, and know how easy it is to mess up and take the wrong reference "she" to a male role and such...

The only way to conclusively end this argument, would be for Robin Hobb herself to issue an statement, which these beings doubt will happen.

[Mervi]

Oh, I think Robin commented on it years ago in her newsgroup saying something along the lines of "that's the kind of knowledge that, even if the Fool one day decides to share with me, would stay between us - I wouldn't betray the Fool's trust". I thought it was a delightful answer, and so so very Robin.

['thul]

These beings chuckle at Robin Hobb's response, agreeing with thine assessment of it.

[Bink]

Oh, I think Robin commented on it years ago in her newsgroup saying something along the lines of "that's the kind of knowledge that, even if the Fool one day decides to share with me, would stay between us - I wouldn't betray the Fool's trust". I thought it was a delightful answer, and so so very Robin.

love the response.

[Nuytsia]

It has to do with the Fool's presence in the Rooster's Crown (Farseer, I know you love the significance of the Crown). In that, every minstrel could not perceive the Fool's physical form but his very being in the crown. Through his blood, every minstrel perceived and referred the Fool as 'he'. His very being is male.

Heh I was wondering what more could be added to this debate, but I've never seen anyone mention that point before! (that I recall!)

I agree that is as close to conclusive evidence as you can get!

I mean yay for ambiguity, but I always think of him as male

Thanks Bink for sharing that one! Good one!!

[NeverBeenWise]

What impresses me about the Fool is that he/she (for the sake of the board, as I personally like to think of the Fool as male) seems to undergo such a complete shift in character every time it's necessary. Having acted myself, I know that I have to get into a certain character's mindset before I can ever play it convincingly, and even my thought processes have to change. So I think that when the Fool died, he thought of himself as male, and that's what the inhabitants of the Rooster Crown picked up on. However, when the Fool was playing Lady Amber in Liveships, I think he thought of himself as female, whatever his "plumbing" may have been. So I think the minstrels in the Crown would have called the Fool a female had his/her last thought been as Lady Amber.

Just my own two cents!

[Chrischa]

Aside from the Fool's gender, I thought it was very interesting how the Liveship books are basically the story of a White Prophet's failing. My theory for that is based on the fact that she (let's say 'she', as I'm now talking about Amber), fails to find her Catalyst, which was supposed to be Wintrow, and thus she misses out on many key moments.

I wonder how the story would have gone if Amber had managed to get on board Vivacia, and what would not have happened. I wonder if the serpents would have reached their cocooning grounds earlier, so that they would have emerged as proper dragons. Given the fact that the Fool reckons that this is his goal as a White Prophet, I've no doubt that the goal of Amber's mission in Bingtown was the healthy emergence as dragons of the leftover serpent. Their deformities are a sign of the things the White Prophet failed to do, while their being there at all is a sign of the things that the Catalyst did right, even without guidance.

So - what would have happened had she sailed off with Vivacia and Wintrow? She would have undoubtly been a pillar of support for Wintrow and his woes. She would have helped him to accept his fate, and merge closer with Vivacia. Consequently, Wintrow might not have tried to run away in Candletown, not been captured and marked as a slave.

But then, how come Amber knew she was supposed to find a nine-findered slave boy?

I can only guess that Wintrow wasn't supposed to become Amber's Catalyst until he got the slave-tattoo and lost his finger. Which would somehow put Amber in Candletown, managing to find her way aboard after they sailed off with their load of slaves.
The slave uprising might have happened, even though Wintrow was the main cause for it, and she would have needed to somehow survive both the slave uprising and Kennit's pirates. Afterwards, she would again have guided Wintrow as a member of Kennit's crew.
And at this point, I suppose, is where the White Prophet might have made the biggest difference. Wintrow freed She Who Remembers even without her, but if Amber had managed, through Wintrow, to convince both Swift and Kennit to help the sea serpents reach their cocooning grounds earlier, it might have made an enormous difference. Kennit and Swift wasted a huge amount of the serpent's time and energy in playing ego-games, while Wintrow at this point felt lost and useless.

What difference would it have made to the events that Amber was present at, had she been with Vivacia instead? Not too much, if I recall correctly. She helped Althea run away, befriended and organised the slaves of Bingtown, and played a major part in Paragon being launched for the rescue mission. On board Vivacia, she helped to keep Paragon sane and found her way out of the burning ship (another significant moment which tells us much about the Fool, I think, when she talks to Paragon's dragons).
I don't remember if there was anything else, but those are not major changes if you consider a White Prophet got into the play. She didn't really assist in the freeing of Tintaglia, which was the other key event to restoring the dragons.

That's why I find the Liveship books so enormously interesting, because there is this whole undercurrent of White Prophet/Catalyst, and what happens if they are NOT in the right place at the right time.