The Fool (spoilers for all RotE books, including LST)

['thul]

That sure is an interesting point... 'thul had not considered that before, but it does make sense...

[Farseer]

What difference would it have made to the events that Amber was present at, had she been with Vivacia instead? Not too much, if I recall correctly. She helped Althea run away, befriended and organised the slaves of Bingtown, and played a major part in Paragon being launched for the rescue mission. On board Vivacia, she helped to keep Paragon sane and found her way out of the burning ship (another significant moment which tells us much about the Fool, I think, when she talks to Paragon's dragons).
I don't remember if there was anything else, but those are not major changes if you consider a White Prophet got into the play. She didn't really assist in the freeing of Tintaglia, which was the other key event to restoring the dragons.

Fantastic post, Chrischa!

I have more to add but another thing that comes first to my mind is the Rooster Crown (I hear you all groaning !). Now, if Amber had not been aboard Paragon, and also befriended him, she wouldn't have been there when they recovered Igrot's hoard from beside the Rain River and she would not have been on the receiving end of that gifting of the Rooster Crown from Paragon...and nor would Fool be alive, as it is only through the crown that death was later averted.

The question is, is that a good or bad thing ?!

While it could be seen as a good thing, as Fool and therefore the WP still lives, thanks to Changer, it could also be seen as a negative consequence...if Amber had not received the Rooster Crown and had been on board Vivacia with Wintrow instead, the WP would most likely have died in Aslevjal just as he/she had forseen. Who knows what may go awry because this didn't/did happen, simply because Amber may have been where she ought not to have been?

Love it!

[Nuytsia]

That damn crown again! Yah I wish it had never been found...!!!
I actually did think when I finished Fool's Fate that it would have been much better had the Fool not been resurrected ......

And re Chrischa's points..... geees I really need to re-read Liveships! I really enjoyed that series but I don't think I got half the significance of anything!!!

[Chrischa]

That is a very good point, I hadn't thought of the Rooster Crown. It was indeed not supposed to happen, but then why did Fitz find those feathers if the Fool wasn't supposed to have the crown? Did the beach think; "Oh well, he's got it now, might as well provide the rest"?

I think we might really be over-analising this and maybe we should just take things as they are, for fear of ruining our enjoyment of the books.

[Farseer]

I think we might really be over-analising this and maybe we should just take things as they are, for fear of ruining our enjoyment of the books.

I think I over-analyse every THING in every ONE of Robin's books but, for me, that's half the fun. In fact, I'd really rather look for already-penned, hidden riddles and references than wonder what happens next !

Going on from that, and for an almost complete change of subject, though still on the Fool...what is the significance of the baby etc in Fool's room at Buckkeep (mentioned in AA when Fitz went in there, against Fool's wishes)?

"A baby. I...knelt beside the basket that cradled it. But it was not a living child, but a doll, crafted with such incredible art that almost I expected to see the small chest move with breath. I reached a hand to the pale, delicate face, but dared not touch it. The curve of the brow, the closed eyelids, the faint rose that suffused the tiny cheeks, even the small hand that rested on top of the coverlets were more perfect than I supposed a made thing could be. Of what delicate clay it had been crafted, I could not guess, nor what hand had inked the tiny eyelashes that curled on the infant’s cheek.

I still haven't worked it out from my countless re-reads of all books and it makes me crazy not being able to find a Fool/Amber/Lord Golden/White Prophet link or a clue as to why it would be there !! The only reference to it after the event, that I can find, was when Fool finally answered this question from Fitz in RA, "Whence comes the Fool and why?"

Fool talked about how much he had been loved as a child and Fitz "...remembered the time I ventured into his room, and the exquisite little doll in its cradle that I found there. Cherished as the Fool had once been cherished."

It intrigues me because it sounds like an Elderling-wrought form of artwork. Before he saw the baby, Fitz even said, "I tried to imagine the pale cynical Fool in the midst of all this colour and art."

Not to mention the loom with all of its bright-hued threads in the corner (a reference to or even a physical manifestation of the tapestry threads of Fate he wields as the White Prophet and speaks of at times to Fitz?!), I wonder if the baby simply denotes the future Farseer heir, or could it be something more personal to Fool?

Also, what do you make of Fool's ability to just 'appear' and 'disappear' as he often did/does, particularly so in the Farseer trilogy when he would suddenly be in Fitz's room or left abruptly without Fitz knowing, seemingly without having opened the door? I know that Fitz couldn't sense him via the Wit but often it was written as though Fool had come and gone in an almost ghost-like fashion?

Another example of this type of thing would be when Amber disappeared all of a sudden in the middle of her one and only conversation with Wintrow. What to make of it all?!

[Nuytsia]

Yay for overanalysing!!!!!!!
Hmmm well I'm stumped on the baby/doll....... maybe it's just like some sort of doll from the Fool's childhood? Or maybe he made it..... As to the significance I cannot say precisely.
But your quotes in your post make me think of the Fool sitting in his room like a psycho patting the baby and saying 'there there, we make all the bad go away'
Hehehe , hopefully not!

I too often pondered why Fitz often makes a point of how silent/scentless/indetectable to his Wit sense the Fool is ..... but errr I have no answer to that either. I guess we can always put such things down to 'that's what the white prophets are like...' ... but that's no real answer !
(I can't recall exactly if Fitz makes any mention of Prillkop being the same..... hmm have I asked that before? seems familiar)
It's obviously not just Fitz who notices this, as you picked up that Wintrow made a similar comment re Amber....

[Farseer]

Sorry for partly cross-posting (have just put something about this in my Gernia vs RotE thread) but thought I'd point it out for those who haven't read the SS series and so would not enter that section due to spoilers.

I think it was very clever for Robin to cast Beloved as 'Fool', a jester whose job it was to keep the court, Shrewd etc amused, in good humor, and with perspective. In essence he provided balance in that arena, as would all jesters, for his king and the people (not to mention Fitz!).

His role as White Prophet was an extension of this balancing role...similar but on a grander stage. As White Prophet, Fool has seen himself as central to bringing balance back into the world (though, of course, with the help of Changer). In the RotE, this balance to the world is to be returned by the restoration of Elderlings and dragons.

I also love that he took on the role of one considered to have the least value as a member of the court however he was truly one of the most valuable to the future of the world. It is a theme I love about Robin's characters...that while many 'greats' fail, many other 'lesser ones' do prove to be more than they appear BUT, that's for another thread!

---

I've just realised I'd forgotten to come back to this part of the thread! How ever have I missed this great part of the 'gender' discussion?!

Oh, I think Robin commented on it years ago in her newsgroup saying something along the lines of "that's the kind of knowledge that, even if the Fool one day decides to share with me, would stay between us - I wouldn't betray the Fool's trust". I thought it was a delightful answer, and so so very Robin.

I love it !!! While it is heaps of fun to speculate and raise points for debate either way, it is the whole 'mystery' about Fool that I love, not only 'his' gender but ALL that is Beloved! I read an interview of Robin's the other day where she spoke about her thoughts regarding author genders (if female authors are overlooked etc), and her thoughts seem to very much reflect those of Fool...in that it matters not at all !

It has to do with the Fool's presence in the Rooster's Crown (Farseer, I know you love the significance of the Crown). In that, every minstrel could not perceive the Fool's physical form but his very being in the crown. Through his blood, every minstrel perceived and referred the Fool as 'he'. His very being is male.

Love this too - a great point, Bink (and nice reference to the Rooster Crown )! It could be said though that Beloved was male at that time and this is why he was perceived as male by the minstrels. Ah, looking through, ok, NeverBeenWise's post seems to follow my thinking in that regard.

A more solid counter-point...hmm, from whence could one come? What about the scene where Paragon was alight and his dragons were vying for domination within him? Amber was below-decks and had her hands (including the one which was covered with Skill) ungloved in Paragon’s blood place and therefore both he and the dragons were connected with her and aware of her via the Skill. At no stage did either of them, or Paragon, consider Amber to be anything other than a ‘she’.

BUT, in this example, I am guessing that you would invalidate it by saying that Paragon and the dragons had already perceived Amber to be female via her physical form and therefore just believed what was before them? I disagree, particularly as they were linked via the Skill however I will try and come up with another, stronger counter-point, simply for the sake of debate !

I think Robin's comments regarding it are important though, as is her clever use of names throughout the story-telling. There are many times when two or more identities are mentioned in the one sentence and that is because she is referring to two distinctly different characters, even if they are housed within the one 'body'. Say wha' ?!

[Nuytsia]

I also love that he took on the role of one considered to have the least value as a member of the court however he was truly one of the most valuable to the future of the world. It is a theme I love about Robin's characters...that while many 'greats' fail, many other 'lesser ones' do prove to be more than they appear

Me too!

At no stage did either of them, or Paragon, consider Amber to be anything other than a ‘she’.

Oooh counter point!
I certainly think the view that the Fool actually changes genders is a very plausible one. (or that he's both, or neither!! Gah!!!)
I recall Fitz got quite worked up about it when he heard about 'Amber'.. and we could speculate on many possible reasons for his reaction.

I think Robin's comments regarding it are important though, as is her clever use of names throughout the story-telling. There are many times when two or more identities are mentioned in the one sentence and that is because she is referring to two distinctly different characters, even if they are housed within the one 'body'. Say wha' ?!

I'm not quite sure what you mean, could you give an example?

[joost]

I think Robin's comments regarding it are important though, as is her clever use of names throughout the story-telling. There are many times when two or more identities are mentioned in the one sentence and that is because she is referring to two distinctly different characters, even if they are housed within the one 'body'. Say wha' ?!

I'm not quite sure what you mean, could you give an example?

Nevare/Soldier's boy.

[Nuytsia]

Hmmmm, maybe I was overthinking it! Yeah I see, just the fact that there are two separate identities going in the same body at the same time.....

Oh I forgot to include in the post above:

Farseer on the subject of Paragon/his dragons relating to Amber as if definitely female........
I can't recall exactly what happened when Althea was posing as a boy when she went aboard the liveship (Ophelia was it?) Did the ship immediately realise she was in fact female? My vague memory is that might be what happened?

(not that it necessarily proves anything either way, I understand there was a much greater bond between Amber and Paragon, and the blood etc.)