Random questions about Liveships (spoilers Farseer, LST and TM)

[Omie]

Hmmm I never really thought about that before! Do you think the Fool somehow had something to do with Fitz eating the cake?????? oh what a tangled web.....

I think he didn't need to have anything to do with it. By that point the actions of the Pale Woman were setting up the future to the Fool's liking (if you can say that he 'liked' the prospect of being tortured to death). If Fitz had been able to skill out a distress call, the changes to events would have torn the Fool's prophecy to ribbons. Without meaning to, the Pale Woman just kept ensuring her own doom. It was like she was stabbing at everybody with a blade held backwards (and just like that, she ended up with no hands. Ha!).

And maybe he didn't know it would happen that way, but unlike the Pale Woman he was always loathe to tweak events to aid his own prophecies in case he interferred with them. That's not to say he never did - he did, frequently and with gusto - but I think he was reluctant and didn't often do it deliberately.

Oh, what I wouldn't give to see a scene between Fitz and Paragon.

So much yes! I can imagine it being amusingly uncomfortable. 'So, we appear to share a face' isn't the greatest conversation starter.

I think Paragon would be like a possessive big brother weighing up the man who had taken his sister's heart, sort of pleasant and jocular but with hints of 'And if you hurt her I will hunt you down and kill you slowly', sort of thing. You can imagine how Fitz would take that, as well as being uncomfortably reminded that his friend had other aspects and that people loved Amber just like he loved The Fool.

Oddly, though, I think that a liveship would have been a great metaphor for the different aspects of the Fool. If Fitz had ever chatted with one he could have better appreciated how somebody can be several things and one thing all at the same time.

[Farseer]

^ Here is a discussion I will have to return to!

In the meantime, there are a couple of things I will be keeping an eye out for during a LST re-read, which I will hopefully begin not too far away:

* Ownership details of the Kendry so I can confirm or deny once and for all if his owners are actually mentioned (which I and others don't think they are, as we have outlined in a discussion with others a while back in this thread!).

* Until I came across the first conversation that Jani had with Ronica and Keffria regarding courtship between Reyn and Malta, I had not taken in the fact that Reyn's father was still alive at any time during the three books. I had always believed that he had died next to his blocks of memory stone prior to the beginning of SOM but it says that Jani talks of her husband as still being alive at the time she visited the Vestrits in Bingtown. I will watching very closely for details of him/his death.

* History on the Three Ships folk. The books, as far as I recall, define the group as being made up of any number of folk who had made Bingtown their home after Bingtown had first been settled and the Bingtown Council initially established. They appeared to me to have come from all other parts of the realm, as fisher folk, and simply chose to stay, abiding by Trader Council/Bingtown laws and ways. In this, they differed from the New Traders. Sparse Kelter is an interesting fellow so I will keep my eye on him and any other evidence to suggest that his red hair and ruddish (I think) complexion is shared with any others besides Ekke.

* Passages on life in Chalced that may provide tips for future happenings in future books!

* Hints and tips on Ephron and his reasons for not continuing his trading up the Rain River. I know he was concerned about the magic, and the changes/harm coming into contact with it would bring etc, but I get the feeling that there's something else there. If it were only about the objects themselves or the magic, Ephron would never have brought Ronica her earrings from there, and Ronica and Keffria would have been far more cautious with regard to the gifts Reyn gave to Malta, I'd have thought...gifts all with origins in the Rain Wilds and some of Elderling make eg flame jewels.

He was the only liveship owner who refused to trade there. Whatever reason it was, it was significant. Significant enough to make Ronica choose slavery over trade with their Rain Wilder kin, despite knowing the side-effects that would be brought about by slave-trading eg what having slaves on board would do to Vivacia, their reputation etc

* The timeline and also the geography of changes, particularly beneath the ocean as seen from the serpents' perspective

* Carrion. He reminds me of Fool not only in colour but the way he speaks mockingly to the other serpents, and seems to know things...in a different way to the 'knowing' that Maulkin and She Who Remembers have.

* Cataclysmic history/Elderling insights

One other thing I also wonder about...will we come across Rache's husband in future books? The one who, as a slave, was taken to Chalced?

EDIT: Oh, and it's a given that I will be inspecting every piece of evidence that has anything to do with Others and oracles and legends surrounding Others' Island!!

---

An afterthought...

What are we to make of Amber's wanting to stay with Paragon? At one point she tells him that she couldn't think of anything better to wish for than to stay with him and let the world save itself (or something like that). At least one other time, far later in the books, I recall that she expressed the same wish....that she would gladly give everything up to be able to remain with him alone.

Of course, as WP, she knew she couldn't, even telling Paragon in the beginning that she didn't know how long she could spend time with him/remain in Bingtown. Stiil, as a WP who has a strong bond with a Catalyst, and knowing how much Fool loves Fitz (aside from, or in spite of, that WP/Catalyst relationship), it seems a surprising wish, in a way...? Or not?

[Nuytsia]

* Until I came across the first conversation that Jani had with Ronica and Keffria regarding courtship between Reyn and Malta, I had not taken in the fact that Reyn's father was still alive at any time during the three books. I had always believed that he had died next to his blocks of memory stone prior to the beginning of SOM but it says that Jani talks of her husband as still being alive at the time she visited the Vestrits in Bingtown. I will watching very closely for details of him/his death.

I just re-read SOM and I had the impression Reyn's father was dead (or at least he didn't feature)......
It does say in Mad Ship that Reyn has a step father. This might be the 'husband' of Jani who is alive. (he would be her husband, just not Reyn's father)

* Hints and tips on Ephron and his reasons for not continuing his trading up the Rain River. I know he was concerned about the magic, and the changes/harm coming into contact with it would bring etc, but I get the feeling that there's something else there. If it were only about the objects themselves or the magic, Ephron would never have brought Ronica her earrings from there, and Ronica and Keffria would have been far more cautious with regard to the gifts Reyn gave to Malta, I'd have thought...gifts all with origins in the Rain Wilds and some of Elderling make eg flame jewels.
He was the only liveship owner who refused to trade there. Whatever reason it was, it was significant. Significant enough to make Ronica choose slavery over trade with their Rain Wilder kin, despite knowing the side-effects that would be brought about by slave-trading eg what having slaves on board would do to Vivacia, their reputation etc

This bugged me too when I started re-reading LST!
I thought it might be something to do with Keffria's deformed (??) baby. It does say that Kyle was away at the time and Ephron 'had to deal with it' (or words to that effect). However, as neither Keffria nor Kyle had ever been up the Rain Wild River (AFAIK) then it seems unlikely that is the ACTUAL reason. Then again, people's 'reasons' aren't necessarily logical ones.
I found it strange that Ronica did choose to allow slave-carrying rather than Rain Wild trade for the liveship. Then again it seemed that Ronica and Keffria were kind of unbelievably clueless as to the nature of liveships.

* The timeline and also the geography of changes, particularly beneath the ocean as seen from the serpents' perspective

Yeah! When my partner read the very start of SOM he got the impression the serpents had been hibernating! That had never occurred to me.
Something I hadn't noticed that I picked up on my re-read was when the serpents moved north they went to colder waters before they got to warmer waters.
This seems weird on the face of it (on our world if you went north you would generally either just get warmer, just get colder, or first get warmer then colder)
But I guess there's always the influencing factors of your 'gulf stream' type flows so who knows. The cold water may just indicate 'open ocean' away from continental influences.
[/quote]

* Carrion. He reminds me of Fool not only in colour but the way he speaks mockingly to the other serpents, and seems to know things...in a different way to the 'knowing' that Maulkin and She Who Remembers have.

He reminds me of Moby Dick. Teehee!
Yeah it was a bummer he didn't get to be a dragon, I thought he had some significance.
Hey on the Fool, I just re-read a bit where Shreever refers to Maulkin as a 'prophet' ..... not that I think it means anything about the WP's..... just sayin'

What are we to make of Amber's wanting to stay with Paragon? At one point she tells him that she couldn't think of anything better to wish for than to stay with him and let the world save itself (or something like that). At least one other time, far later in the books, I recall that she expressed the same wish....that she would gladly give everything up to be able to remain with him alone.
Of course, as WP, she knew she couldn't, even telling Paragon in the beginning that she didn't know how long she could spend time with him/remain in Bingtown. Stiil, as a WP who has a strong bond with a Catalyst, and knowing how much Fool loves Fitz (aside from, or in spite of, that WP/Catalyst relationship), it seems a surprising wish, in a way...? Or not?

I just re-read that bit! She seems very taken with Paragon, and I found it ironic that Paragon is thinking about how humans always die so he shouldn't get attached to her (or something like that). Ok well she WILL die but if Prillkop is anything to go by she will live an unbelievably long time. If only Paragon knew that. I wonder if she ever tells him? I bet not.
Anyhoo I do wonder if Paragon will have a reunion with 'Amber' - he's going to be around a lot longer than anyone else 'she' knows.
AND the reasons Amber has to leave are kind of null and void now (no longer WP, world can save itself pretty much) (or can it?) (to be revealed)

---

Here's a random question about LST - who the heck are the Durjans?
I've come across about the third reference to it, and it appears to be a race/nationality??? I wonder where they live.

['thul]

Waters outside the continental shelf, and particularly water outside the main islands is colder. Shallow water is heated by the sun easily, whereas deep water isnt.

[Nuytsia]

* Hints and tips on Ephron and his reasons for not continuing his trading up the Rain River.

Oh another thing, I just read something that indicates Davad thinks the blood plague was linked to the Rain Wilds. I can't recall if it was earlier stated that other people thought that? (Ephron?)

Something I hadn't noticed that I picked up on my re-read was when the serpents moved north they went to colder waters before they got to warmer waters.
This seems weird on the face of it (on our world if you went north you would generally either just get warmer, just get colder, or first get warmer then colder)
But I guess there's always the influencing factors of your 'gulf stream' type flows so who knows. The cold water may just indicate 'open ocean' away from continental influences.

I got the impression that the serpents were in warmer water before they got within the influence of the warm river water coming into the pirate isles area, BUT I think I got that wrong.
I can't find where it's FIRST mentioned (gah!) but it may just be that it's warmer due to those hot rivers ....... so I guess my previous impression was correct! (ie on a world scale it's generally warmer in the south)

[Farseer]

* History on the Three Ships folk. The books, as far as I recall, define the group as being made up of any number of folk who had made Bingtown their home after Bingtown had first been settled and the Bingtown Council initially established. They appeared to me to have come from all other parts of the realm, as fisher folk, and simply chose to stay, abiding by Trader Council/Bingtown laws and ways. In this, they differed from the New Traders.

In AQ, Kettle speaks to Fitz of Cabal the White, a prophet and seer of Kimoalan times. She says of Cabal, "Through his guidance, a treaty was wrought that put an end to a hundred years of war. It enabled three folk to become one people."

Possibly there is no connection but I couldn't help but think of the Three Ships folk when I read it. Also, Cabal's actions are not unlike Amber's in that she also worked to create a unity between Old and New Traders, the Three Ships folk and the Tattooed.

Kettle continues, shedding light on the place of origin of Three Ships folk, if it is indeed they who became 'one from three folk', "Knowledge was shared. Many kinds of foods that once grew only in the southern valleys of Kimoala came into common usage."

[Valarya]

* Ownership details of the Kendry so I can confirm or deny once and for all if his owners are actually mentioned (which I and others don't think they are, as we have outlined in a discussion with others a while back in this thread!).

I just finished LST and don't remember a single mention of the Kendry owners. Althea speaks to the figurehead once on the piers of Bingtown. Reyn/Grag travel on Kendry from Trehaug to Bingtown and not one mention is made of the Captain or its family. During that trip Reyn can't stand to go anywhere near the figurehead for fear it would know what it is.
There's a part when Tintaglia lands on the docks outside of Trehaug and Kendry is docked up there, but once again no mention of the family. The only place I can think of it might mention it is during a Trader's Counsel meeting where perhaps someone stands up and our POV character recognizes the person as owner/family of Kendry. My recollection says no, though.

* Until I came across the first conversation that Jani had with Ronica and Keffria regarding courtship between Reyn and Malta, I had not taken in the fact that Reyn's father was still alive at any time during the three books. I had always believed that he had died next to his blocks of memory stone prior to the beginning of SOM but it says that Jani talks of her husband as still being alive at the time she visited the Vestrits in Bingtown. I will watching very closely for details of him/his death.

Someone already corrected this issue. Reyn's father did die long ago next to blocks of memory stone. Jani Khupris re-married, though - and her husband is Reyn's step-father (Jani and the step-father also had a child. A girl.).

* Hints and tips on Ephron and his reasons for not continuing his trading up the Rain River. I know he was concerned about the magic, and the changes/harm coming into contact with it would bring etc, but I get the feeling that there's something else there. If it were only about the objects themselves or the magic, Ephron would never have brought Ronica her earrings from there, and Ronica and Keffria would have been far more cautious with regard to the gifts Reyn gave to Malta, I'd have thought...gifts all with origins in the Rain Wilds and some of Elderling make eg flame jewels.

He was the only liveship owner who refused to trade there. Whatever reason it was, it was significant. Significant enough to make Ronica choose slavery over trade with their Rain Wilder kin, despite knowing the side-effects that would be brought about by slave-trading eg what having slaves on board would do to Vivacia, their reputation etc

Ah, since I just finished LST, this is fresh on my brain. I want to find the EXACT chapter where Ronica says it, though, because she definitely explains why Ephron quit his RW trading.

*runs over to bookshelf*

Ah, here it is.. about 3/4th of the way through SoM:
"If Papa had continued in the Rain Wild trade, the Vivacia would most likely be paid off by now," Keffria pointed out.

"Most likely. But at what cost?"

"So Papa always said," Keffria said slowly. "But I never understood it. Papa never explained it or talked about it in front of us girls. The only time I ever asked him about it, he just told me he thought it was an unlucky path to choose. Yet all the other families who have liveships trade with the Rain Wild families. As the Vestrits own a liveship, we have the right to do so, too. Yet Papa refused it." She spoke very carefully as she continued, "Perhaps it is a decision we should reconsider. Kyle would be willing. He made that clear when he asked about charts of the Rain Wild River. Before that day, we had not discussed it. I thought that perhaps Papa had already explained to him. Before that day, he had never asked me why we stopped trading up the River. It just never came up."

"And if you manage things cleverly, it never will again," Ronica said shortly. "Kyle up the Rain Wild River would be a disaster."

And here was another uncomfortable topic. Kyle. Keffria sighed. "I remember that when Grandfather was alive, he took the Vivacia upriver. I remember the gifts he used to bring us. A music box that twinkled as it played." She shook her head. "I don't even know what became of that." More quietly she added, "And I never truly understood why Papa wouldn't trade up the river."

Ronica stared into the fire as if she were telling an old tale. "Your father . . . resented the contract with the Festrews. Oh, he loved the ship, and would not have traded her for the world. But much as he loved the Vivacia, he loved you girls more. And like you, he saw the contract as a threat to his children. He disliked being bound by an agreement he'd had no say in." Ronica lowered her voice. "In some ways, he thought ill of the Festrews, that they would hold him bound by such a cruel bargain. Perhaps they saw things differently in those days. Perhaps . . ." Her words faltered for a time. Then, "I suppose I lied to you just now. I speak the way I know I should think: that a bargain is a bargain, and a contract is a contract. But that contract was made in older, harder times. Still, it binds us."

"But father resented it," Keffria said, to draw her mind back to that.

"He despised the terms. He often pointed out that no one ever completely discharged a debt to the Rain Wilds. New debts were always stacked upon the old ones, so that the chains binding the contracting families together only got stronger and stronger as the years passed. He hated that idea. He wanted there to come a time when the ship would be ours, free and clear, and if we chose to pack up and leave Bingtown, we could do so."

The very idea shook Keffria to the foundations of her life. Leave Bingtown? Her father had actually thought of taking the family away from Bingtown?

Her mother spoke on. "And though his father and grandmother had traded in Rain Wild goods, he always felt they were tainted. That was how he put it. Tainted. Too much magic. He always felt that sooner or later, such magic would have to be paid for. And he did not think it was . . . honorable, in a way, for him to bring back to our world the magic of another place and time, a magic that had, perhaps, been the downfall of another folk. Perhaps the downfall of the entire Cursed Shores. Sometimes he spoke of it, late at night, saying he feared we would destroy ourselves and our world, just as the Elder folk did."

Ronica fell silent. Both women were still, thinking. These things were so
seldom spoken aloud. Just as the charts of difficult channels represented a major trading advantage, so did the hard-won knowledge shared by Bingtown and Rain Wild Traders. The secrets they shared were as great a basis for their wealth as the goods they bartered.

Ronica cleared her throat. "So he did a thing both brave and hard. He stopped trading up the river. It meant he had to work twice as hard and be gone three times as much to turn the same profit. Instead of the Rain Wilds, he sought out the odd little places in the inland channels, to the south of Jamaillia. He traded with the native folk there, for goods that were exotic and rare. But not magical. He swore that would make our fortune. And if he had lived, it probably would have."

And as to Ronica's feelings on Slavery, here is what she said to Keffria earlier in SoM:
"...As for his idea of using her as a slaver ... it makes me ill. Simply ill." She lifted her head and her gaze pinned Keffria in her place. "It shames me that you can allow your son to endure all he must see if he travels aboard a slaveship. How can you allow him to see that, let alone be a part of it? What do you think he must become to survive it?"

* Carrion. He reminds me of Fool not only in colour but the way he speaks mockingly to the other serpents, and seems to know things...in a different way to the 'knowing' that Maulkin and She Who Remembers have.

Carrion says that he found SWR once, many cycles ago.. so that's how he remembers more (or differently) than Maulkin or the stunted SWR does. I'm guessing by the time he found a SWR the world was also mostly changed and no one could find their way to the Serpent River. In time he probably just made his way back south to the feeding grounds.

[Farseer]

Thanks so much, Valarya! I was aware of the rest re Ehpron but his feelings regarding the agreement with the Festrews is what escaped me. I had forgotten all about it! In many ways Ephron's reaction reminds me of the feeling of resentment that

*kind-of Words Like Coins/Tawny Man spoiler*

Spoiler

a Pecksie feels for a human who binds it, or even the feeling Dutiful experienced when Fitz bound him with the Skill command.

It is, however, yet another example of the workings of 'fate' within the realm...as much as Ephron tried to prevent a member of his family being tied to the debt for Vivacia, Malta and Reyn ended up together anyway. Thankfully for them, it ended up being a willing arrangement!

As for leaving Bingtown, I know Ephron and Ronica had spoken of leaving for the Spice Isles once their children has grown, and Ronica mourned the fact that they would never end up there.

[Valarya]

Interesting that she mourned never ending up in the Spice Isles yet she is integral in helping Bingtown start anew after the Chalcedeans invaded. Go Ronica!

[londonlassie]

Some of these questions are incredibly stupid, I know. But I'm the kind of person who fixates on daft things.

I might have to join the club there!

- What would happen if a Liveship that identified most strongly as one sex was given a figurehead carved in the likeness of the other? I'm picturing a beautiful busty creation in wizardwood talking in a deep grufty voice.

I agree with an earlier point which said that the carver would just know which sex to make the figurehead, but with a minor adjustment - if a dragon was not fully dead when it was removed from the cocoon, perhaps an echo of its consciousness remained with the shell as it was carved up for wizardwood. Not enough to talk, or anything, but just enough to make the sex of the dragon obvious. I don't know, maybe it's a silly idea

- Could two Liveships fall in love? Aww.

I suppose they must be able to. It would be adorable if they did. After all, they're part human and humans can love. And they are capable of loving people - Vivacia loved Althea and Wintrow, Paragon loved Kennit. Again, only speculation, but I'd love to find out that they could.

- Regarding wizardwood: could the contraceptive piercings introduced in the Liveship Traders series 'talk'? Because I can't think of a better mode of contraception than a person's belly button suddenly shouting 'Knock that off, you two!'

I doubt it, but someone should make a real life equivalent and market this.

- How would a Liveship feel to one with the Wit sense? It might have said this somewhere in the books but I can't remember.

I think Fitz mentioned he didn't like the magic and wasn't comfortable around it? I might be wrong, it's been a while since I read the Farseer set.

- Although Amber never poured herself into the Paragon the way the Fool did to Girl-On-A-Dragon, she must have left him with quite an imprint. Would the Paragon have felt his old friend slip away when the Fool died?

I imagine that he may have felt it, but would have ignored it, because that's Paragon's mentality. If I ignore it, it's not there/it's not happening. Like a little kid.