Wintrow/Kennit SPOILERS ALL HOBB BOOKS INCL COD

['thul]

The act of feeding is oft an urge.

[Farseer]

It interests me that Maulkin mistakes Vivacia for She Who Remembers. Not One Who Remembers, as might be expected, but She Who Remembers.

Aside from this, the recognition on Maulkin's part may possibly even suggest that there was/is something special about Vivacia that places her apart from other liveships that the serpents may have encountered previously? Maybe it is Wintrow's link (via Fate and later contact) with She Who Remembers, and subsequently his link with Vivacia, that puts Maulkin in mind of her so...instead of just as being dragonkin in some form.

Hmm...

['thul]

One who remembers is gender-neutral. Since dragon queens are in some ways higher on the chain of importance, the fact that Vivacia, had she hatched, would've been a queen, makes her distinct. Add in the fact that she, when in serpent form, was a memory carrier, and it becomes clear.

A male serpent carrying memories would, from that logic, be "less" than a female serpent doing the same. One Who Remembers vs. She Who Remembers.

Perhaps she simply was the primary memory carrier for her original serpent generation?

[Farseer]

Perhaps she simply was the primary memory carrier for her original serpent generation?

Ah, now, there's a thought I didn't think to think.

---

One who remembers is gender-neutral. Since dragon queens are in some ways higher on the chain of importance, the fact that Vivacia, had she hatched, would've been a queen, makes her distinct. Add in the fact that she, when in serpent form, was a memory carrier, and it becomes clear.

A male serpent carrying memories would, from that logic, be "less" than a female serpent doing the same. One Who Remembers vs. She Who Remembers.

While I agree that a male serpent carrying memories would be less than a female serpent who did the same (eg maybe Maulkin vs She Who Remembers?), One Who Remembers isn't gender-neutral 'thul. One Who Remembers is the name that the serpents know the dragons by. At least, I'm sure that's the case. Will try and come back to confirm that from the text.

I'd have thought that, through her dragon memories, Vivacia would have had a scent or sense like a One Who Remembers (a dragon) and so not She Who Remembers, who is still in serpent form. It is, as you say though, possible that Vivacia *was* a She Who Remembers...and since she experienced death during her transition phase, she did not actually reached the full 'dragon' phase.

['thul]

With that death into Vivacia, she never fully left the "she who remembers" phase for "one who remembers" phase. Because of this, her "smell" or whatever feel she gives to serpents is still reminiscent of such.

'thul had forgotten serpents naming dragons "one who remembers".


These beings just thought of something... Could it be that dragons don't just affect nearby humans, but also each other? Might that, along with overly long serpent life and too short cocooning be reason for the shattered memories of the dragons? After all, the last known She Who Remembers died uncocooned. If she had cocooned, perhaps her memories would have "bled" through to the others, enhancing theirs?

[Farseer]

Slipping beyond F, LST and TM and into Rain Wild Chronicle spoilers now so adding *ALL HOBB BOOKS* to the spoiler tag...

It's interesting, particularly given that we know that serpents seem to lose their serpent memories and then have them taken over by dragon memories after they emerge (the newly-hatched dragons took varying lengths of time before some recalled aspects of their serpent lives and, even then, many of those memories were not always clear or more than a whisper of thought eg such as recognising that Mercor-as-Dragon was once Maulkin-as-Serpent or that the newest parts of Tarman were once Sessurea).

As far as broken dragon memories, yes, it is caused by not only the too-long time spent awaiting She Who Remembers and the too-short cocooning time, but also the fact that they had only Tintaglia's spit/saliva (only one One Who Remembers, and this one who herself had cocooned far too long in the Crowned Rooster Chamber in Trehaug and had gaps in her own memories, as opposed to the many One Who Remembers they would have had helping in previous generations) to furnish their needs when it came to making their cases out of the memory sand.

['thul]

true. these beings forgot to add that problem to the list.

[londonlassie]

She’s back with yet more to add in this thread. Is it just me, or do I basically live in here?

Okay, so post-exams I thought I’d come and get something out which has been confusing me for a while.

When Kennit is stabbed at the end of Ship Of Destiny and they’re trying to take him back to the Vivacia, he has a little chat with Etta, basically telling her to take his charm and give it to Paragon when he’s older. He talks to her like he loves her, and even calls her “my love” at one point. Now this doesn’t sound much like the Kennit I’ve known for three books, who doesn’t actually like Etta that much, tends to blame her for everything that goes wrong in his life, and definitely doesn’t love her.

I know he has a tendency to pretend to be romantic with Etta when someone’s watching him or he wants something from her, but I doubt upholding his reputation as her ‘lover’ would really matter to him at this point since he knows full well that he’s dying.

Now, a couple of minutes later, Wintrow tries to talk to him. Kennit ignores him, saying something like “he doesn’t have time for Wintrow right now”. Considering how close Kennit was to Wintrow – far closer than he was to Etta – I found this both disappointing and weird. He’s got time for a girl he doesn’t particularly like, but not the boy he was practically in love with? Or, you know, at least as much as Kennit was capable of loving anything.

This made me think, was it really Kennit who was talking to Etta, or was it Kennit’s charm? Everyone knows Kennit’s charm loved Etta, or at least liked her a lot more than the real Kennit did. It makes sense to me that even if Kennit’s laying there practically out of it, the charm would want to make Etta think that she’s the last thing he’s thinking of.

I had a whole post on this which was way more detailed, but my internet froze

[Farseer]

Glad to have you here as often as you'd like, londonlassie! I have a few Wintrow and Kennity things I actually want to chat about, too, but time is stopping me...and I daren't post a* thing* these days lest those beings known as 'thul decide to quarter and burn me by a mischosen word!

Like AQ, TM and (or so I expect) BoD, Ship of Destiny brings so many threads together, and adds more mystery at the same time. I love it!

Right...onto the matter at hand...that the words were spoken to Etta as a whisper (as I recall?), that Kennit's face was quite hidden at the time (I think his head was down or flopping about on his chest?) *and* that he was bringing up blood at the time (which would make speech rather difficult, whisper or no), I believe it was the charm speaking here, and not Kennit.

While Etta may have *thought* that the words were Kennit's and desperate due to the fact that Kennit thought that he would die, and so had to say these things to Etta while he could, I believe that the *charm* spoke them desperately because he knew that Kennit was going to die, and thus the chance to speak with Etta would be lost...otherwise he would have to reveal himself to her if it chose to speak to her directly after Kennit's death.

Of course, there are later times when Etta 'recalls things' from Kennit or 'hears his voice' but, from her perspective, it is 'as though he were still there', so she doesn't believe it is actually speech that she is hearing, but Kennit resounding in her thoughts and memories. I believe, though, that it is really the charm whispering to her.

It will be interesting to find out if the charm makes itself fully known to Paragon (Ludluck), in the same vein as the charm in 'The Inheritance' made itself known to Cerise. By blood it will be his and so I imagine it will make itself known to him, and be bonded to him also.

More to add on this re Wintrow but, is that the time?? Gotta go!

[londonlassie]

I have a few Wintrow and Kennity things I actually want to chat about, too

Can't wait to hear them, Farseer!

Right...onto the matter at hand...that the words were spoken to Etta as a whisper (as I recall?), that Kennit's face was quite hidden at the time (I think his head was down or flopping about on his chest?) *and* that he was bringing up blood at the time (which would make speech rather difficult, whisper or no)

I hadn't really considered the physical side of it. I imagine coughing up blood wouldn't really be conducive to clear speech

Of course, there are later times when Etta 'recalls things' from Kennit or 'hears his voice' but, from her perspective, it is 'as though he were still there', so she doesn't believe it is actually speech that she is hearing, but Kennit resounding in her thoughts and memories. I believe, though, that it is really the charm whispering to her.

I believe this too, but it always surprises me. Etta always came across as quite astute, and she was able to sense that Vivacia was a living thing, so I would always have thought that she would have felt the same about the charm.

It will be interesting to find out if the charm makes itself fully known to Paragon (Ludluck). By blood it will be his and so I imagine it will make itself known to him, and be bonded to him also.

I would love to pay a visit to the Pirate Isles and little Paragon. I suppose the charm will eventually have something to say to the boy, although I bet he'll probably be nicer to Paragon than he was to Kennit. He'd probably like to make sure that Paragon makes a good king.