Wintrow/Kennit SPOILERS ALL HOBB BOOKS INCL COD

[jasonresno]

OK, so I'm just now finishing my third (or fourth, or fifth.. I can't remember anymore) re-read of the Liveship Series and something sort of struck me about the relationship between Wintrow and Kennit.

Is it possible that Wintrow is Kennit's "white" Prophet? Sort of like the Fool is to Fitz?

The reason I ask is because Wintrow and Kennit have this convoluted relationship. Wintrow, repeatedly, throughout the books lets his "gaze go afar" while he "dreamily" recites some scripture or drops random wisdom. Add on to the fact that he is always being accused of "not speaking plainly" (by Etta mostly but also Kyle and the rest of his family) and I think there are a few similarities to the Fool. Wintrow is also similarly magnetic toward Kennit even after he finds out his Aunt was raped by the man.

There probably isn't much meat to the bone of this theory but it was something that kept scratching the back of my mind while I was reading the final book. If it's totally off base and you guys think I'm crazy for thinking so let's just discuss the actual relationship between the two of them. Did you buy into how they acted towards eachother? Did Kennit REALLY care for Wintrow?

['thul]

Winthrow is the catalyst that the fool was "meant" to have during the time period of the liveship books... So no, he is not one of the whites. He is, however a rather important person...

One reason Winthrow likely seeks out Kennit despite knowing the bad facts is that he's fairly young, and has the natural want for a father figure that shows the least bit care for him. To someone as young as he, rape does not have the same level of meaning it has to older people. Just think of trying to explain rape to a 6-year old... Yes, Winthrow is considerably older, but his previously cloistered life has made him effectively far younger than his years in worldly experience.
Kennit becomes the father Winthrow should have had in Kyle. It is hard to say whether Kennit truly cared, but Winthrow was useful.

[Nuytsia]

Hi Jasonresno

Hmmm although Wintrow wouldn't literally qualify as a White Prophet, I do wonder how Kennit fits into the picture.

(Yeah I know it is certainly implied that Wintrow as someone Amber was 'supposed' to have met up with. As to whether he's specifically her Catalyst I am still unsure. Is it possible for a WP to have more than one Catalyst? I'm sure that's been discussed somewhere!)

Seeing as Amber does seem to see working against slavery as a major goal, I wonder what was 'supposed' to happen with her and Wintrow, and whether Kennit was always 'supposed' to be a part of it??

[fool-ish]

I've just finished Ship Of Destiny today and have been pondering the relationship between Wintrow and Kennit ever since.

Wintrow, I suspect found a sort of father figure in Kennit, but then Kennit's feelings towards him were anything but fatherly for the most part. He was inclined to think about doing to Wintrow that which Igrot did to him which, of course Althea bore the brunt of and on more than one occasion Kennit had considered maybe disposing of Wintrow, just like any other member of his crew if they hampered his plans in any way. At these times though, he would speak of almost mourning for the boy already. So, did Kennit see him as the son he was meant to have or was he merely a useful tool? I'm not really any closer to understanding this relationship fully but it's certainly got me thinking and 'tis likely to plague my thoughts for days on end!

Thoughts on Amber and Wintrow are also plaguing me. I first thought, oh another catalyst! But then their conversation about Wintrow taking on the care and upbringing of Etta's child had me thinking that perhaps Amber wanted to ensure that another 'prince' wouldn't have to endure that which had befallen Fitz at Galen and Regal's hands...that this child would gain it's rightful place in the world without such suffering and ensure slavery remains abolished. Just another part of the white prophet's mission to change the course of the world? This does sound like Wintrow is a catalyst but as has been mentioned, can a WP have more than one? I'm sure there's more to it but I can't just think at the moment...Only Ms. Hobb's books can do this to me!

[jasonresno]

I've just finished Ship Of Destiny today and have been pondering the relationship between Wintrow and Kennit ever since.

Wintrow, I suspect found a sort of father figure in Kennit, but then Kennit's feelings towards him were anything but fatherly for the most part. He was inclined to think about doing to Wintrow that which Igrot did to him which, of course Althea bore the brunt of and on more than one occasion Kennit had considered maybe disposing of Wintrow, just like any other member of his crew if they hampered his plans in any way. At these times though, he would speak of almost mourning for the boy already. So, did Kennit see him as the son he was meant to have or was he merely a useful tool? I'm not really any closer to understanding this relationship fully but it's certainly got me thinking and 'tis likely to plague my thoughts for days on end!

Thoughts on Amber and Wintrow are also plaguing me. I first thought, oh another catalyst! But then their conversation about Wintrow taking on the care and upbringing of Etta's child had me thinking that perhaps Amber wanted to ensure that another 'prince' wouldn't have to endure that which had befallen Fitz at Galen and Regal's hands...that this child would gain it's rightful place in the world without such suffering and ensure slavery remains abolished. Just another part of the white prophet's mission to change the course of the world? This does sound like Wintrow is a catalyst but as has been mentioned, can a WP have more than one? I'm sure there's more to it but I can't just think at the moment...Only Ms. Hobb's books can do this to me!

I think, per generation, there is only one Catalyst. And that Catalyst is Fitz Chivalry for our series. However I think there are a multitude of "catalysts" (no capitalization) that can swing and sway the world to a lesser extent. Think: Kebal Rawbread, Wintrow, Kennit.

[Farseer]

I have LOTS to add to this discussion, and have been meaning to get back from the very first day the thread was posted but there are so many points to chat about that I haven't had time to sit down and type it all out. Such great questions though!

I agree with you, jasonresno, regarding the last point. All beings (animal, dragon, human, pecksie, Other, serpent, Elderling etc) are capable of performing the role of a catalyst, despite there only ever being one 'Catalyst' per generation...eg Fitz. I believe Amber states this quite clearly, though possibly not directly (?), a number of times. As does Fool. Examples I can think of for Amber are conversations she had with Paragon and Brashen about how their actions have contributed to change.

I think this ability to be a catalyst is one of the many main themes of the books...kind of like 'the power of one' or the power each of us has to create change, no matter how seemingly small our contribution or how small or large the change.

With this as a guide, Wintrow most certainly took on a catalytic role. Among other things, without his intervention, She Who Remembers may never have been released. Certainly, Fitz may have found and released her when he reached Others' Island with Dutiful but it is possible that she may have died by the time he got there. By then it may have also been too late for Maulkin and the rest of his tangle etc as they had already reached the cocooning grounds in the Rain Wilds and had emerged as dragons by the time Fitz had even got to the Treasure Beach.

So much more to add but I would have to argue the point that Amber was 'meant' to have Wintrow as her catalyst during the period of the LST. Certainly, Amber thought that she had connected herself to the wrong person AND Fool thought it also...but I am not so sure. Will try and find the previous discussion on this and return...

['thul]

These beings feel slightly otherwise...

There can be many catalysts for each generation, but not many that has the power to catalyze as many things. Fitz was a great catalyst because of the way he upset things, yet at the end of the tawny man books, he was not eligible for triggering and catalyzing as many changes because of his position then.

More important here is the fact that while there's many catalysts, there is only one prophet that can direct the catalyst(s) each generation. If the prophet is unable to get to the catalyst (like Amber & Winthrow), then the choices of the catalyst may end up being wrong and not having the full effect in the right direction.

[fool-ish]

Ok, so now I'm thinking deputy catalyst (inadvertently and unknowingly) aiding chief catalyst to reach the goals set by white prophet? I don't seem to be able to get my head round more than one catalyst though..fool was that insistent throughout that Fitz was 'IT'. Pftt! I'm rambling now in an effort to sort it all out in my poor head.

['thul]

for a storyline involving anything six duchies / Farseer, fitz was catalyst. But the liveship books did not involve anything six duchies / Farseer, so he was not catalyst there.

[fool-ish]

Ah! There can only be one White Prophet per generation, but there can be more than one catalyst per White Prophet according to the needs of their prophecies and where said prophecies might take them? Simple really. Thanks 'thul'