Reading The Dragon Keeper

[chriSchaeffer]

What's the rule on spoilers in general, by the way? Do events from, say, Assassin's Quest still have to be spoilermarked, or is that considered common knowledge? What about something slightly more recent, such as Fool's Fate?

The only spoiler I wanted to avoid in this thread was any spoilers from The Dragon Keeper, everything else is open. I know some people have not finished Dragon Keeper so I didn't want to ruin it for them, but the other books... I think we all read them YEARS ago.

---

Just read your review. Regarding Hobb's "attempt to be controversial":

Spoiler

Are you referring to Hest's mistreatment of Alise, or to Hest and Sedric being gay? I myself do not feel that Hobb has deliberately tried to be controversial, although the scene where Hest kinda forces himself onto Sedric is weird - that should have been handled subtler. Anyway, I feel it's just part of who they are - it's not sensationalised or anything.

Spoiler

I was referring to the sex (rape?) scene and the fact that Hest and Sedric are gay. When I look back over all the events, it almost seems like Hobb has taken every male role and made each of them into pigs.

Hest - Turns out he is a repressed homosexual, he has issues with his mom and dad, and he's got a major anger management problem.
Sedric - He's gay, but he's a disgusting character as well because he is forcing Alise to be faithful to the man he's having gay sex with!

If it weren't for Leftrin, I don't think I could identify with ANY of these characters.

[Albertosaurus Rex]

If you want to read something really bad in that regard, try the Deverry series by Katharine Kerr.

Spoiler

The second book, Darkspell, features two homosexual wizards who ritually rape men to gain magical power. Their latest victim, in the end, discovers to his shame that he actually liked :blink: their treatment of him. They are the only gay characters in the entire series so far (I have read the first three books, don't ask me what compelled me to read on after that).

But, back to Dragon Keeper's controversy:

Spoiler

Yes, Hest and Sedric are pretty despicable (did I spell that correct?) characters. Consider, though, that apparently, homosexuality is not tolerated in the Farseer universe. It must affect people who are gay. And remember, there were plenty of unpleasnt males who weren't gay - Regal, Kennit and Cosgo come to mind.

[chriSchaeffer]

Ah, but wait! Kennit actually was a victim of another man raping him when he was young!! I think it was in Ship of Destiny. I don't know what it is about forbidden gay sex, but apparently it's Hobb's secret weapon when she needs something shocking.

[Albertosaurus Rex]

And then he gave his memories to Paragon, which, if I understand the books, has a dehumanizing effect.

Anyway, you might have a point, but I don't know. From what I've read, Hobb does not appear to be homophobic - although some characters clearly are. About the aforementioned Katharine Kerr, I have very little doubt.

[Nobody]

I think we're better off making a new topic ourselves, Sini.

What's the rule on spoilers in general, by the way? Do events from, say, Assassin's Quest still have to be spoilermarked, or is that considered common knowledge? What about something slightly more recent, such as Fool's Fate?

Spoiler

Fitz is Chivalry's son OMGWTFBBQ!!!

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

[chriSchaeffer]

Fitz is Chivalry's son OMGWTFBBQ!!!

LOL! BBQ WIN!

[Albertosaurus Rex]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Chris, now you have spoiled The Farseer for me!!!!!!11!!!1!

[chriSchaeffer]

Now this place is starting to look like a real forum! All we need now is...

[Image: 224279642xh.gif]

[Seventh]

Spoiler

I was referring to the sex (rape?) scene and the fact that Hest and Sedric are gay. When I look back over all the events, it almost seems like Hobb has taken every male role and made each of them into pigs.

Hest - Turns out he is a repressed homosexual, he has issues with his mom and dad, and he's got a major anger management problem.
Sedric - He's gay, but he's a disgusting character as well because he is forcing Alise to be faithful to the man he's having gay sex with!

If it weren't for Leftrin, I don't think I could identify with ANY of these characters.

i'm not sure i agree with you

Spoiler

Hest: okay, YES he is a horrible character, but i think that he would be whether he was gay or straight, it isn't a part of his being gay. he lives in a culture where homosexuality is not accepted, so of COURSE he's 'repressed', ALL homosexuals are. I don't believe that that is a part of his innate character, it's a consequence of his society.
He's actually pretty honest, saying frankly to his wife that he doesn't love her and that the marriage is one of convenience for both of them. Perhaps he should be totally transparent with her and explain his reasons, but he can't risk her outing him and ruining him.
he is manipulative and cruel, but that's the consequence of being a spoilt rich kid; look at how how manipulative Malta was [and still is]. The sex/rape scene with Sedric is unpleasant, but i found it reasonably realistic taken in context of the culture they life in. that is: when homosexuality is so hidden, it takes quite a lot to get someone to admit that they may be one. Hest's 'seduction' methods may be abhorrent to us, but Sedric allowed it, and chose to continue the relationship.

Sedric: is also gay, but i don't see how he's 'disgusting'. He has very strict ideas about what is right and proper, and he's also completely gagged by his own role in Hest's life. For the marriage to break down, there would have to be evidence that Hest is being unfaithful, which would obviously condemn Sedric just as much as Hest, if not moreso, because Hest, coming from a 'better' family, would probably play the 'poor innocent rich boy led astray by the filthy low-bred Traderboy' card. Hest would lose everything, Sedric would lose everything, Alise would lose everything. How is that better than trying to keep it rolling onwards with as few ripples of scandal as possible? Agreed, it's not ethically 'right' to be so dishonest, but what else can he do?
If anything, Sedric's worst actions are to do with the stealing of dragonparts for his own gain, and the murder of the copper dragon - and not his involvement in Alise and Hest's marriage.

[Mervi]

First of all - thanks for starting the second thread and sorry I wasn't here to help you - I've been scared of spoilers since I accidentally read information about the recurring characters in a random blog. But I've just finished the book so I'm back at trying to manage things.

Regarding the question on how to handle spoilers (in general): if you're mentioning something that you think might spoil the plot (for example you compare Fitz and Nevare in a topic that is not a discussion about the Soldier Son books), you should use the spoiler tags for the Fitz parts. Some people might have started reading the SS trilogy first but haven't read the Elderling stories. I know there are also some who have skipped the Liveships, or started with them, but I believe most people have read the Elderling trilogies in the chronological order, so there's no need to blanket things told in the Farseers when discussing the Tawny Man books etc. On the other hand fewer people have read the short stories so things from them should probably be mentioned between the s-tags. There are a few things in the trilogy of trilogies that I think are HUGE spoilers and should ALWAYS be treated carefully - namely the identify of a certain bead maker in LST and the character deaths in FE and FF.
But if a topic is clearly titled for example "Cloven Hooves" there's no need to use the tags inside it. I think the only exception to that is a topic for discussion WHILE reading a BRAND NEW book - a topic like this one, if you guys do want to have separate topics for "while reading" and "finished" in the future - it's fine with me. :smile:

[spoiler=WARNING! Contains high levels of serpent venom... err I mean Dragon names and Hest/Sedric.]
I didn't find the scene(s) with Hest and Sedric controversial at all. I'm actually a bit confused that someone used the word "rape" - the only raping that I think was described was the one time Hest forced Alise to bed with him when she clearly stated "not tonight". I don't think either one of them considered it a rape because as Traders they see everything in the light of contracts and fulfilling them, but what happened was clearly against Alise's will at that moment and she had made it very clear. And then there was of course the mating-attempt that Sintara describes with repulsion...
But the way I understood Sedric's memory of his first encounter with Hest, there was nothing that would indicate it happened against his will. Yeah sure, Sedric was hesitant/scared at first, and most of all tried to act as if he wasn't interested but he's clearly described realizing that this is what he wants and quite quickly responding to Hest. It's very different from those "... but in the end she actually enjoyed what happened to her" descriptions.

BTW, I didn't find Sedric "piggy" at all. Surely he's a bit annoying with his obsessive needs to have "nice things" but I think he's a character we will see to grow and develop (á la Malta). I think the very ending of the book, the last lines before the final Bird Keeper exchange are an indication of that. Hest on the other hand... I have a feeling he's pretty much set in his ways, much like Kyle Haven was.

The serpents/dragons! :heart:
I thought it was pretty obvious that Mercor must be dear [[Maulkin]] - not only because of his physical features but because his somewhat gentle nature and philosophical musings.
For the rest of them... I'm not sure. I hope very much that the silver one with the wounded tail who seems to be slowly awakening to more intelligence willl turn out to be [[Carrion]] (though I don't think it was ever stated in Ship of Destiny what happened to him).
We know for sure from [[Shreever]] (who ends SoD) that she, [[Sessurea]], Maulkin and [[Kelaro]] managed to build cocoons for themselves. We also know that [[Tellur]] and [[Sylic]] never made it. I have a feeling that Sintara might actually be Shreever - it would make sense her voice carries from the end of SoD to the prologue of TDK. She was scarlet as a serpent, but it seems to me from her feelings about finding out her dragon colour that they don't necessarily keep all the same physical features from their serpent years. The way I remember Shreever though is a much more patient creature - but I guess the frustration of suffering such a lowly fate might change her character a lot - just look how much Paragon has changed (for the better!) because of the small child on his decks!
I'm wondering if Kalo might be Kelaro - both are described as bigger than the others. I'm actually making a list of the 15 dragons and trying to connect names with features - there's at least two green females and the one that is Jerd's dragon (apparently Veras) has gold stipplings - which makes me wish very much that it's actually [[She Who Remembers]]!

[/spoiler]