The Dragon Keeper "Controversial?" Hobb and sexuality. *Major Spoilers up to RWC!

[Lord Punctual]

I don't know if it's fair to call the Kelsingra Expedition all that small of a group, either. after all, there were:

-12 Keepers
-3 Hunters
-5 Ship's Crew
-2 Bingtowners

So, that's 22 people, of which 4 are gay. That's 18 percent. So, that's a little higher than the "national average" - but these people were, after all, misfits - it's not like this was a random sampling of the Trehaug population.

Also, about the Keeper who ended up with Davvie, there is such thing as situational homosexuality. The women were, after all, all either taken or off limits.

And... Chalced? Hest, and Sedric are Bingtowners (although they spent a lot of time in Chalced on business) and Davvie, Carson, and the gay Dragon Keeper (hmm, I really should find his name) are all Rain Wilders. Unless you meant someone else? (Sorry to burst your Chalced bubble.)

[Farseer]

And... Chalced? Hest, and Sedric are Bingtowners (although they spent a lot of time in Chalced on business) and Davvie, Carson, and the gay Dragon Keeper (hmm, I really should find his name) are all Rain Wilders. Unless you meant someone else? (Sorry to burst your Chalced bubble.)

Chalced bubble bursting...*pop*! So much for audio books . I had a very quick read of DH the day it was released and then used an audio book to relisten during a recent couple of driving stints...I really MUST zone out when I'm driving these days ! Thankfully I put in "(at least, I believe they were?!)" to cover myself ...it's all a matter of fine print !!

I liked your point on situational homosexuality.

[Nuytsia]

The thing about the relationship between Beloved and Fitz was that it remained unrequited and unconsummated. While I have no problem with this, I can see why Hobb wanted to include a physical, sexual relationship between two men in a subsequent story. Otherwise, she might have been accused of cowardice. Maybe this "making a point" but it is a point worth making, in my opinion.

Hmm I feel a bit ambivalent on this one. Geees I just can't imagine a physical relationship between F and F . Maybe that's what I disliked about all the physical F and Molly stuff at the end. It kind of seemed so weirdly 'normal human stuff'.

I liked the way all the relationships in Dragon Haven were portrayed, although at times the Alise and Leftrin one felt a bit borderline Mills and Boon! She was all so delicate and he was so big and strong! Hehehehe.

[Nuytsia]

Hmm I guess this also belongs in this thread (although I thought there was a general discussion of attitudes towards sexuality in different places in some other thread but can't remember where!)

Anyhoo, I am still a little unclear on the attitude toward homosexuality in Bingtown in particular now.
In DH why is Sedric SO thick about realising Carson (and Davvie) are gay? It borders on the ridiculous. The only reasons I can think are (a) he just thinks it's really rare to find another gay man or (b) he's so naive he thinks all gay men are nicely dressed dandies like himself and Hest ???

Secondly, why is Alise so thick in realising Hest and Sedric are lovers? I mean her suspicions about that locket she finds under Sedric's pillows..!!!! How the heck could it not even OCCUR to her that the locket IS Sedric's? Again, is homosexuality SO rare (or more accurately probably, so hidden) in Bingtown that she just never even thinks of it?
Strangely, once Sedric tells her she doesn't seem THAT shocked really... well at first, but I think she is more shocked that she never realised rather than shocked they are gay.

[Chrischa]

Hmm, I'm guessing it's easier to spot that sort of thing in someone you don't know then in someone you know. You live together for many years... you form an image of someone and it's hard to chance that later.

But then Alice was indeed thick to the point of being ridiculous. I didn't like her very much. There was one point in the book where I though she'd turn into someone I could admire, when after their wedding night she decided that if she was going to be nothing more then a means for her husband to get socially accepted, she'd at least make sure he paid dearly for it. But then next time we return to her, she's turned into this downbeaten woman who begs after crumbs of attention.
Don't get me wrong, anyone in that situation would turn into a sad and unhappy person, but for a moment there it seemed as if she was made of stronger stuff, and as if we were being set up for an interesting internal battle between the couple.

Ah well... I liked DH and the topics it dared to touch on, the way it investigated social situations and the development of a small group dealing with difficult situations, but I can't say I liked any of the characters very much. Except Tats, I thought he was cool!

Going back on topic, if there's one thing that this book has made me realise, it's how enormously difficult it must be for a homosexual to live in a society which condems their feelings, so that they are forced to take a partner of the opposite sex. Imagine for one dumb moment that we lived in a world where homosexuality was the norm, and we, as straight people, would be forced to live and sleep together with someone of the same sex. The idea is quite revolting to us and yet it's no different at all then what we are forcing homosexuals to do. That's something that I'd never grasped before this book, that for them it must be equally as hard as their preference would be for us. And in light of that I can understand Hest's disdain and revoltion for Alice... even if I still think he's a bastard.

[Mervi]

Hmm. Some thoughts about the Fitz/Fool relationship. I don't understand why so many people (in general terms, I don't mean in this discussion!) want to restrict it into terms of whether it's a homosexual relationship or not. The brilliant, genius, significant thing about the Fool is that he's not vague only in terms of gender but in terms of sexuality (as we understand that term) as well. I don't believe he desires Fitz or anyone else simply because they have the right kind of "plumbing". Remember that he says to Fitz

"I set no boundaries on my love. None at all. Do you understand me?"

(in GF). I believe that for him, sex is a way to express and share a deep emotion towards/with someone you love and care about. He completely rejects Fitz's suggestion to go and be intimate with [[Garetha]] because he finds it distasteful to have sex with someone merely to satisfy a physical desire, even if (or especially when?) that other really does want/love you. He comes from a culture that is completely different to the Six Duchies ways - after all, he mentions having two cousins as fathers "for that was the custom of that land". Obviously his experience of family and relationship models is much broader than Fitz's (or ours!).

I've expressed this opinion before elsewhere and the resulting discussion wasn't pretty but I do believe it makes sense that the 6D and Bingtown cultures are (latently?) homophobic, even when there doesn't seem to be a set of religious rules to cause it. Especially in the Bingtown and Rain Wilds "every child counts" - it's important that sex leads to offspring. Also, I guess I'm a pessimist , but I do believe that we humans tend to consider anything different (= minorities) "dangerous" and "wrong" even if there's no church to tell us that it's also a sin. In any case, it will be interesting to see (hopefully in the next books!) how the Rain Wilds/Bingtown culture reacts to a gay elderling couple! Will it enable the hidden Bingtown gay society to come out of the closet? Or will the elderlings be considered an expection to the rules (or so powerful with their dragons that it's best not to meddle in their ahem, affairs.)

Anyway, back to F/F! In my opinion, sex is just something the Fool would be ready to offer to Fitz as part of "the package" (that is himself, his life, his friendship and his love for Fitz). Even when he knows for certain that it's something Fitz would never want, it's there for the taking anyway because he holds nothing back. In FF, "And I set no limits on that love." is the Fool's thought that Fitz hears after breaking their Skill-session. It is ALL there, whether Fitz wants only parts of it or everything. (Fitz thinks it's too much: "No one can give that much. No one.") The Fool of course felt sad and angry when Fitz made a show of rejecting that one aspect of his love, but that didn't change how the Fool feels towards him. The "no limits" still applies even after their huge argument, even though he knows for sure now that Fitz would never even consider taking him up on that offer.

Interestingly, Fitz describes that Skilling experience

"The intensity of it went beyond any joining I’d ever experienced. It was more intimate than a kiss and deeper than a knife thrust, beyond a Skill-link and beyond sexual coupling, even beyond my Wit-bond with Nighteyes"

(in a perfectly Fitz-like way he of course freaks out and breaks the connection, although I have to admit he actually has a good reason to do it because he's hiding the secret plan to "save" the Fool from his destiny.)

So basically, Fitz is saying the same thing as the Fool but with different words: their love is something bigger, something deeper than friendship or sexual attraction or Wit-bond or the relationship between members of the Skill coterie. It REALLY "knows no boundaries" even though Fitz (and later also the Fool) sets them.

I'm not saying that sex isn't awesome and important and all that. But I think the F/F relationship makes a pretty rare and important argument that there are other, possibly more important and permanent aspects to the best relationships - whether or not sex is included in the deal.

[Nuytsia]

Hmm, I'm guessing it's easier to spot that sort of thing in someone you don't know then in someone you know. You live together for many years... you form an image of someone and it's hard to chance that later.

I totally agree, I've done it myself! But I just felt that it only applies up to a point, and when she found the locket I felt she'd passed the point! That's just me and my reading of it though.

But then Alice was indeed thick to the point of being ridiculous.

I do see where you're coming from and I wavered between thinking it was good to have such a character with just terrible self esteem and just not liking her for being that way!
And I really liked Tats until his little tantrum about Thymara being a 'tease' or whatever.

Going back on topic, if there's one thing that this book has made me realise, it's how enormously difficult it must be for a homosexual to live in a society which condems their feelings, so that they are forced to take a partner of the opposite sex. Imagine for one dumb moment that we lived in a world where homosexuality was the norm, and we, as straight people, would be forced to live and sleep together with someone of the same sex. The idea is quite revolting to us and yet it's no different at all then what we are forcing homosexuals to do. That's something that I'd never grasped before this book, that for them it must be equally as hard as their preference would be for us. And in light of that I can understand Hest's disdain and revoltion for Alice... even if I still think he's a bastard.

I can't say the book really opened my eyes to anything new about being homosexual in our culture. (or a more repressive culture, as compared to my own the RoTE certainly seems worse). I actually felt more of an eye opener to read the Farseer books and imagine exactly how it might be to be homosexual and be in love with someone who isn't (although that may not be what's going on, but it still made me think about that!)

Mervi I love your thoughts on Fitz/Fool relationship, and it certainly makes a lot more sense to me having read your post. I think in general I did read it pretty well the way you did, but I must admit at times I questioned exactly WHAT was going on..

[Nuytsia]

Anyhoo, I am still a little unclear on the attitude toward homosexuality in Bingtown in particular now.
In DH why is Sedric SO thick about realising Carson (and Davvie) are gay?....................blah blah .................
Secondly, why is Alise so thick in realising Hest and Sedric are lovers?

Heh I'm not only following my own post but I'm quoting another of my own posts! Is this the first sign of madness?
Anyhoo, further to the post above, I was wondering are attitudes actually different in the six duchies, or are we to put this down to just seeing through Fitz's very skewed eyes .... eg in Tawny Man it appears that every second stranger Fitz bumps into assumes something's going on between him and Lord Golden.... based on .... Tom Badgerlock wearing somewhat tight fitting clothes??? (or something like that!!!).
I see that as quite a contrast to the general cluelessness of Sedric and Alise. Although to be fair, others in Dragon Haven seem to have fairly efficient gaydar.

[maulkin]

What I found particularly interesting was the lack of opinion on homosexuality from Sedric and Carson's dragons...

Yes, the dragons seem to have very few sexual hang-ups at all. Then again, for a species that does not apparently form pair bonds or engage in parental care, sex must be far less emotionally significant. As long as your partner is genetically healthy, who cares what his personality or social status is like? You need never see him again! Dragons presumably see all human relationships, heterosexual or homosexual, as unnecessarily dramatic and complex.

[Farseer]

I do have something else to add but Mervi, as admin, are you able to change the title of this thread to somehow include all books? I think we've talked about all of them so far ?