The Dragon Keeper "Controversial?" Hobb and sexuality. *Major Spoilers up to RWC!

[Nightchade]

I'm currently reading DK (not to worry, I love spoilers..never spoils it for me..I would have been on the floor if I'd come to FF completely cold. Before I got the Kindle I was a dreadful peeker ahead) but I'm loving Sedric's musings on the lands far to the south of Jamaillia where two men could live together openly without censure. Was this where the Fool was from? It always seemed evident that for him gender wasn't such a big deal and this seems to hint it was indeed a cultural thing rather than a 'white' or 'Fool' thing.

Some thoughts from reading the posts.

I haven't read a lot of fantasy before but sci fi has played with boundaries (Ursula le Guins left hand of Darkness, Marge Piercy in the wonderful 'Woman on the edge of time'.) although tis true that for the most part heroes are hetero. For me it has to be a good thing if gay/lesbian characters are depicted and that the relationships are shown as being as fulfilling or as flawed as heterosexual ones. Its also important that the characters do sometimes buck the stereotypes so its good to see a 'manly' 'tough' type character such as Carson(because there are plenty 'manly' gay men). If the goal is to have believable characters despite a fantasy setting then really, failing to show this huge slice of human life, pretending it isn't there ,can never achieve this. It reinforces prejudice and further isolates gay/lesbian/TG people even more. I haven't finished the books yet so things are still to develop but there seems to be a suggestion somewhere that the amount of gay relationships in the books is disproportionate. My view is that a more open society would enable many people to feel free to explore that side of themselves if they wanted to so perhaps not so unusual. If everyone who had ever fancied someone of the same sex 'came out' ..well.. I think it wouldn't be classed as 'abnormal' anymore. A gay friend of mine was fond of pointing out (a few years ago now) that 'most gay men were married'. I'm also thinking that the rain wild keepers/hunters appear to have been largely self selecting. Maybe they felt their 'differences' were more than their rain wild adaptations and so they wanted to leave to be with others they thought might be more tolerant because they were also persecuted. Maybe they are more open to dragons and each other because life has taught them the importance of acceptance of difference and being true to oneself. Just some thoughts. I'll climb off soapbox now...

['thul]

Now 'thul at last recalled which series it was they had mixed up with RotE for the vague hints of other sexual relationships between members of the same gender. Song of Ice and Fire.

Anyways, while browsing around in DK, 'thul noticed a likely reason that Hest kept Sedric around. Not for his particular love (for which Hest has a sorely weak ability), but for his ability to fix all the blunders Hest did make.

He had proven himself as an excellent secretary to Hest and certainly as an affable and entertaining comrade on the long sea trips that Hest had to undertake yearly. He advised and assisted Hest in matters of dress and grooming. When Hest's sometimes abrupt manner gave offence or cooled a budding business relationship, Sedric artfully employed his tact and charm to set things to rights.

[Lady Laura]

Thanks for that 'thul, that certainly must have been a big reason why Hest kept Sedric around for so long! And in Song of Ice and Fire, I didn't pick up on many homosexual hints, and the few I got seemed to give a bad impresion of gay ppl. G.R.R. Martin has said that 2 of the male characters in the books were in a relationship, but he never, as far as I recall, hinted to that in the book all that much. I was actually interested in those 2 characters, and was annoyed he didn't care to explore their relationship in the book. (Although I havn't yet read the last 2 published books in Song of Ice and Fire, but I can't help but assume that the same goes for them.)

And Nightchade, that was very enlightening Yes, i did get the impression that Jamaillia was a bit more relaxed and maybe open to different sexualities... but I keep thinking that people would be more accepting of homosexuality amoung the rich classes (there's a tendancy to just let wealthy people do as they wish, which Sedric seemed to highlight).

I definately agree with you, especially in this:

If the goal is to have believable characters despite a fantasy setting then really, failing to show this huge slice of human life, pretending it isn't there ,can never achieve this. It reinforces prejudice and further isolates gay/lesbian/TG people even more.

I've been feeling the exact same for years now. It irritates me so much that there are so few fantasy books (and other genres, but I'll focus on fantasy) that completely omit characters of varying sexuality. When I read books like those, no matter how good the books were, I just feel like there was a sense of unreality in the fact that all the characters were apparently hetrosexual. You're so right, it does reinforce prejudice and isolation! I only hope that gradually, fantasy authors will start portraying more than just hetrosexual characters and relationships. Hopefully Hobb's portrayal of gays in RWC has done something to change the "taboo" that may still exist around gay characters in fantasy.

[redchild]

Funny because I was thinking of ASoIaF too.

Spoilers up to AFFC:

Spoiler

The eunich Varys reminds me of the Fool in his androgyny as well in his flawless portrayal of the opposite sex. Both are very good actors and seem to demonstrate profound knowledge and understanding of genders.

There was speculation of Renly and Loras having had a relationship, which I think was confirmed by GRRM and hinted at by comments from various characters. A 'Knight of Flowers' and Renly's 'Rainbow Guard' certainly seem to be hinting at their orientations. Flowers and rainbows aren't exactly associated with 'manly' heterosexual connotations for sure. But it is interesting that they are such popular figures in Westeros society. They have qualities that some may consider more feminine than most other men, yet that doesn't diminish their image but rather enhances it. You wont be hearing it from Renly, though. And though Loras was finally developed more as a character in Feast for Crows, you can never tell who GRRM is going to kill off next.

The only actual same-sex sexual encounters through a POV I can recall right now are between Dany and Irri and Cersei and the Myrish Swamp (I love that nickname.) I don't quite believe both Dany and Cersei are actually bisexual rather than mostly heterosexual but bicurious. What I found interesting is the fact that neither considered sex with another woman to be out of the question, but had never considered doing it until the brink of the actual act. Both treated it as a release of some sort so there wasn't any emotional/romantic involvement other than their own introspection. Otherwise, there didn't seem to be any repulsion of the idea of having had sex with another woman.

Maybe this reflects the larger social attitude that believes non-heterosexuality as the only sort of sexual orientation that is socially acceptable? It doesn't seem like there is all that much opposition against homosexuality, unlike western society irl (where religion is invoked in these matters,) aside from maybe mussing up social protocols and the fact that same sex couples can't have kids. And in medieval Westeros, the more kids the better, as they're liable to be killed very easily.

Of course, attitudes differ across various cultures. Dorne seems to have a much more liberal and tolerant view towards sexuality across the spectrum, so far as to have an openly bisexual prince and princess, as well as state acknowledgment of children born out of wedlock. The Summer Islanders also view sex as an integral (and pleasurable) part of their culture and society.

Here is an article about GRRM's portrayal of gay characters in the series:

Was Martin intentionally intending to defy stereotypes?

“Yes,” he says. “But there are other gay characters in the books that are villainous or that are bad in various ways. I think every group has good and bad people in it, whether we’re talking an ethnic group or a religious group. So I try to portray a variety, especially when I have hundreds of characters. So I can do a gay hero and a gay villain and a gay coward and a gay brave person, just as I can do fat people who are good and bad, and so on.

['thul]

That one in the middle § was the one 'thul referred to earlier, but you put it much better than them, redchild...

[Nuytsia]

Varys rocks
(but to me is sooooo different a character from the Fool, despite the things you mentioned)

[Lady Laura]

Ok, I agree that Martin includes a variety of sexual characters, and does more than just present 100% hetro characters in his books. BUT none of his main characters are gay/lesbian! He's ok with putting in subtle hints about 2 guys being in a relationship, but some readers actually missed those hints! Why couldn't he have been more direct with it?

It's been about a year since I read the last book (I think the next one i need to read is book 3 part 2 LOL I am waiting for my library to get it ) I did forget about Varys! Good points about him. I remember that incident with Dany, that was definately interesting. But that's the only POV we get of a non-hetro encounter. I hope I'm not over-analysing things here (I have a tendancy to do that!) but it feels to me like Martin is ok with writing about 2 women having a sexual encouter, but he steers clear of putting male/male scenes into any of his POV characters plotlines. I'm not saying he should put something in there for the sake of it! It just feels to me that he only puts in hints about homosexual themes (with a few exceptions, most of which are in relation to non-principal characters).

I say all this in the knowledge that I still have to read part 2 of book 3 (how confusing lol), and that things may very well change in the later books.

['thul]

perhaps he has little to no information about such, and does not want to attempt writing such and doing it wrong?

[Lady Laura]

Yeah, that's quite possible! I'd say that's a reason why a lot of fantasy writers try to avoid homosexual storylines and such.

[redchild]

Varys rocks
(but to me is sooooo different a character from the Fool, despite the things you mentioned)

I agree they have completely different personalities, and also very different motivations. But their MO's are similar in that they disguise themselves as many different characters and maintain a far-reaching and intricate network of contacts and spies to gather intel.

perhaps he has little to no information about such, and does not want to attempt writing such and doing it wrong?

That's what I think too. Some may consider it a double standard but I don't think he is oblivious to it. It may be that he truly doesn't know the subject well enough to write about it. There was discussion earlier about Hobb never writing about homosexual relationships until the RWC, and even then she never wrote about two women having a sexual relationship. There is also the fact that the series isn't even completed yet!

Neither does he seem to want to hit you over the head in regards to who is gay or not. Besides, it's not like everyone in society (in the fictional world and irl) will publicly announce their sexual orientation. Some, like the Red Viper, are open about it, but some people are just more private, and I think GRRM reflects that subtlety.