Elderling Creations Theory (Spoilers through all the books and Dragon Haven)

[Mervi]

It's in very beginning (2nd paragraph) of chapter nine of AA, "Fat Suffices". Fitz is describing the very few know facts about the Fool and says

The Fool was almost certainly born of human race, though not entirely of human parentage. Stories that he was born of the Other Folk are almost certainly false, for his fingers and toes are completely free of webbing and he has never shown the slightest fear of cats. The unusual physical characteristics of the Fool (lack of colouring, for instance) seem to be traits of his other parentage, rather than an individual aberration, though in this I well may be mistaken.

[Chrischa]

Very good thread! Having just finished Dragon Haven, I guess that the Skill can indeed be given to people at a later age, through dragon blood. How Chade would hate that! It occurred to me that we, as the reader, are now the utmost experts on the Skill because we have all the puzzle pieces, whereas the characters in the books only have the perspective of their own lives and experiences. Not even the Fool has all the knowledge we have been given.

The Skill must also, somehow, exist in liquid form, in the river in Kelsingra. This kind of Skill seems to live on the outside of the body, rather then become part of someone. It can't be the same stuff that gives the Rain Wild River it's acidity, otherwise humans would surely develop a thread of Skill after immersion in it? So where does it come from, and where does it flow to?

I wonder how much the Skill is going to change in the years to come. Already, when they are lost in the 'Skill river', Fitz has encountered a being there that wasn't there before. I first thought that this was Tintaglia but she seems waaaay too kind and caring to be that arrogant dragon. It's also very different from the way she talks to Fitz and Nettle when she stalks them in their Skill-dreams. But if it is Tintaglia, then I'm guessing that in further years the whole Skill-river will become populated with the minds of dragons.
Am I the only one who gripped the book very tightly when Fitz encountered the minds of the ancients ones and of Verity in the Skill-river? That must be where they reside when the stone dragons are asleep. I was very glad to read that, to think that Verity did not just sniff out of self-awareness when his dragon went to sleep.

Next to that I think the amount of people showing an aptitude for the Skill and developing it on their own is going to rise extensively now that dragons are back. Maybe within a few generations, not having any Skill will be the exception.

I think you are very correct in saying that the Elderlings used the Skill to shape the stone around them. I wonder then why Fitz seems to slowly unravel when he is near this stone, why does it affect everybody who has an aptitude for the Skill when they, for example, walk the Skill road? That road is described in that nursery rime; 'Wise Men Came to Jhaapme Town" as the test one must pass to show one is worthy of carving a dragon. The current Skilled ones must miss a vital element of the Skill that the Elderlings did posses.

And last (you can tell I've given this topic a lot of thought already, can't you? ), if the Others are misshapen dragons, one can only guess at the level of frustration, anger and arrogance that must live in them. The mind of a dragon in the body of an abomination. I can very well see how they would have captured She Who Remembers, in their anger and despair that they should have been dragons, they could very easily turn against their own kind, who after all created them and then cast them aside as shameful freaks. They must also have life-spans as long as those of dragons, for there to be any left long after the event that killed of the dragons.

Phew! Every time I think about all this, I'm struck with awe as to the complexity of the story that Robin Hobb has created. To not only create this story but to also puzzle in together in a way that it sits inside no less then nine books, and relies on the reader to put everything together... masterful work!

[maulkin]

One point that is made very strongly in Dragon Haven (and more subtly in Fools Fate) is that the relationship between dragons and elderlings is one of mutualistic symbiosis. Dragons need elderlings as much as elderlings need dragons. Associating with dragons unleashes enormous potential in humans, resulting in their transformation into elderlings. Likewise, it was only by associating with humans that the hatchlings of the Rain Wild Chronicals were able to complete their transformation into dragons. In particular, several of the dragons lacked the capacity for speech and complex thought until they developed a bond with the keepers. Even the more intelligent dragons appeared to lack the capacity to cooperate or engage in complex social interactions until they acquired these abilities from their keepers. This makes me wonder what would happen to dragons if humans disappeared from the World. Would they remain intelligent and socialized or would they degenerate into solitary, brutal creatures, lacking art, culture and beauty?

It seems likely to me that the Skill is not a quality of humans or dragons but is produced by the interaction between humans and dragons. Without this interaction, perhaps neither humans nor dragons would be able to communicate mind to mind or manifest any of the other skill-related powers. In this way, it would function similarly to the Wit, which is a product of the interaction between humans and animals. It is clear that the animal partner is changed just as much by the wit bond as the human partner. In the absence of dragons, humans discovered how to develop the Skill through interactions between humans, but it was still this quality of interaction/bonding that was important. Skill-users either form coteries or develop a personal bond with the king. Eventually, this intimate bond leads them to seek to merge their identities entirely through the creation of a stone dragon.

[Anders Sebring]

An interesting thing is that at the end of Dragon Haven, it is said that dragons have venom at the claws on the wings. The same goes for the Others, who have venomous claws - but no wings. (Or do they have wings?)

[Farseer]

Hey all,

I posted this as a new thread but then thought it could maybe fit in here...

When Fitz and company arrived at the Stone Garden in AQ, they found that some of the simulacra/stone 'dragons' had become draped and even overgrown with vines etc.

This was also the case when Fitz and the Fool returned with the Rooster Crown in FF and, I think, when he had made his earlier trip back there with Nighteyes not long after the Red Ships had been defeated (as retold by Fitz in FE when he spoke to Fool of returning to Verity-as-Dragon).

What are your theories as to why the memory stone in this form doesn't seem to deter plant life however the Skill road and other memory stone/Skill-wrought objects seems to repel it?

You may all come to regret my registering as I have HEAPS of questions such as these and, most likely, none of them will matter in the whole scheme of things!! I think I will also discover that I have thought on these books WAY TOO MUCH and have made more out of the tiny details than I should have!

[maulkin]

One possibility is that the memory stone of the stone dragons is "full". It has received enough memory to animate it and now resists acquiring any more (this would merely disrupt its identity). Because the stone is no longer passively acquiring memories, it is no longer dangerous to living organisms and so they are no longer repelled by it. An argument against this is that the stone dragons do still seem to steal memories when they are active, to the extent that people can be forged merely by being overflown by a stone dragon.

An alternative possibility is that, by becoming dormant, the stone dragons inactivate the power of the memory stone to soak up memories/life force. It is possible that, if the dragons did not shut down this property of the stone, their sleep would interrupted frequently as they accidentally absorbed memories and life force from wandering animals and questing plants. This seems to make sense, given that the dragons can be awakened by intentionally splashing them with blood, effectively forcing them to absorb life force.

[Farseer]

Love your ideas, Maulkin, particulalry the second theory.

I am still thinking on it all, throwing the path that winds through the forest on Others Island into the mix as well. Both times Kennit visits the island, it is well noted how there is nothing living near the path (I think it even gives a measurement of a metre or two when he visits it with Wintrow). His wizardwood charm talks about its magical effects and Fitz also noted (to both himself and then, later, Chade) a strange feeling he'd had about not desiring to go into the forest.

Will come back...

[Farseer]

Was considering putting this in the Rain Wild Chronicles thread but think it better belongs here? While it could be said that wizardwood is not an Elderling material for art, but rather a material wrongly used by Rain Wilders, I could point out that dragons DID give outstanding minstrels a portion of wizardwood so that they could then be preserved within the Rooster Crown? That being my basis for adding wizardwood and liveships to the thread, I'll cut and paste...!

It's interesting to note that, by the end of the RW Chronicles, Tarman joined Paragon in the elite group of liveships to have been made from two different wizardwood logs (albeit not originally). I don't think there were any others, were there?

Though he had temporarily gone against his normal easy-going nature, and proved stubborn to Leftren's orders when insisting on his choice of direction to Kelsingra, was there anything to really suggest that he had been overly 'changed' by the experience? Nothing to suggest that he had absorbed any other dragon memories from the additional wood, or found himself 'torn' as Paragon did? Did Tarman always know the way to Kelsingra, but just couldn't make it that far without his webbed feet etc, OR did he only discover the way AFTER his improvements had been made (via memories from within the new wood)?

If not, obviously this would then have been due to the fact that the wizardwood Leftrin used had come from a 'log' that had held a dead dragon. This, in turn, would confirm the idea raised at the end of LST, that only those liveships made from similar wizardwood (from a dragon already dead prior to opening/exposure) had remained unchanged eg Ophelia.

Hmm, have just thought of something else...the question is, why can a liveship made out of 'dead' wood still be quickened? Is it because the wood itself is like a vessel for memories (like memory stone), waiting to be filled and, in the case of liveships made from a dead dragon's wood, only becomes filled by their human family's memories? Quickening this dead wood (as well as live wood, for want of a better way to differentiate the two!) usually requires the anma from three generations...

Going on from there, how is it that Tarman was able to even use his new appendages when they were separate from his original wood, and without the need for blood? Is it that the new wood absorbed his own memories and so became one with him? Remembering that Amber had used Paragon's own wood when reshaping his face, creating his battle-axe, earring etc...

Going on from there, how did Kennit's charm quicken on Others Island without the transfer of blood or the anma of a life? Blood, after all, is memory...

[Chrischa]

Wizardwood is essentially made from memory stone, isn't it? The dragons swallow the black sand on the beaches of the Rain Wild River, then regurgitate it with their own saliva to create their cocoons. And we know that sand is simply the remains of stone that got carried to the beach from elsewhere by the wind and tides. So, the dragon's cocoons are made from the same black stone.

It seems as if the entire dragon race evolved around this black stone. There must be massive amounts of it deep underground, more then the rare quarries we see in the stories, for an entire race to depend upon it for it's survival. Perhaps this stone used to be the main kind of rock found in this world before that cataclysmic event (which I personally believe was a meteor strike) caused volcanoes to erupt and cover the lands with another kind of earth and stone.

Anyway, I'm drifting off. I think the moment of memory stone and wizardwood's quickening depends on the size of the piece; Kennit's charm awakened with nothing but a saturation of memory because it was so small, whereas a liveship and stone dragons take several complete essences to quicken.

I don't know about Tarman's merging with the new wood... my guess would be the same as yours, that both of his dragons had been dead when the wood was used. Adding new wizardwood woud add fresh memories, and that's one thing that Paragon certainly didn't need.

[Farseer]

Wizardwood is essentially made from memory stone, isn't it? The dragons swallow the black sand on the beaches of the Rain Wild River, then regurgitate it with their own saliva to create their cocoons. And we know that sand is simply the remains of stone that got carried to the beach from elsewhere by the wind and tides. So, the dragon's cocoons are made from the same black stone.

I concur!