*spoilers all books* Dragon Haven, Enjoy it? Hate it?

[Chrischa]

I'm sure that Fitz' city is Kelsingra; Tintaglia visits it as well in Ship Of Destiny. You can find that passage on page 185 of the UK pocket-edition. Tintaglia is quite disappointed with the city, though. She sees it as a dead city where the stone vaguely remembers what it was once told to be. But I like the way her view of the landscape matches the journey in Dragon Haven, Robin Hobb must have taken great care to make sure everything matches.

I liked Dragon Haven as well, though it seems to lack the heart-rendering conflict that poor Fitz gets subjected to in his books. Not that I would wish that on anyone!
I like the way it focuses on the relationship between the humans and this new arrogant species that has come into the world. So much a double-edged sword. I thought what the Fool said in the Fool's trilogy was fascinating; that if he didn't succeed in bringing dragons back into the world, humanity would eventually spread to dominate nature and to cover and claim all the lands. It makes you think about how different the evolution of our own world would have gone, if there had been a species on Earth that claimed equal status to humanity. Fascinating!

[Manephelien]

I admit that the thing I like best about the Rain Wild Chronicles and The Liveship Traders is the lack of Fitz. Give the poor guy a break!

[Farseer]

Hi all,

I have been a long-time fan of this fantastic site and have only just now registered to finally provide some input of my own!

As a person who has never read the same book twice (outside of revisiting childhood stories now with my own children!) I must admit to having read all eleven of the Farseer, LST, Tawny Man and Rain Wild books, as well as all related short stories, far too many times than is healthy...in fact, I find myself wishing I could fight this addiction I seem to have acquired as well as Fitz manages to fight the lure of a Skill addiction!

From my interpretations, I agree that Kelsingra is most certainly the same city as visited by Verity, Fitz and then, later, Tintaglia (and as was mentioned in the writings of White Damir, and then quoted by the Fool/Kettle after Fitz had been there, "At his touch shall be wakened the dragons of the earth. The sleeping city shall tremble and waken to him." ).

In AQ, Fitz sees the lions of stone guarding the entrance steps to the city's map tower and then these two images on the exterior..."A giant of a woman gripped an immense plough behind a team of monstrous oxen. A winged creature, perhaps a dragon, took an entire wall to himself."

Later in SOD, Tintaglia sees/passes by the same stone lions and also notes the same two images on the map tower of the city she herself refers to as Kelsingra, though she provides us with more detail than Fitz, given her dragon memories of them, "Cariandra the Fecund still endlessly ploughed her fields behind her team of massive oxen, while on the adjacent wall Sessicaria spread wide his wings and trumpeted silently."

Along with Fitz, Tintaglia also notes other unique features of Kelsingra, such as the huge cleft that had divided it, and the river which had claimed the space for itself.

I'm not sure why but I have teased myself into thinking that maybe reliefs of Fitz and the Fool somehow end up being on the other two walls of the tower (we are not given any clues as to what is on these), much as I wonder about two images on a Mountain Kingdom rug mentioned in the Farseer books which sound very much like they could be them.

I also found myself hoping the whole way through DK and DH that toward the end of the story, Fitz was going to somehow surprise us all by "randomly" (I'm borrowing that word from my teenage sons!) popping up somewhere to direct the dragons and their keepers to the city...that they would get there, and Heeby was going to be the first to fly was always predictable to me, BUT I was sort of hoping that Fitz would make an appearance to ultimately save the day with his foreknowledge of the place....that he didn't, and that they all got there by themselves, in a better condition that what they were in when they left the Rain Wilds, I have to admit I thought to myself, "Poor Fitz, he went through all that he did and dragons may have ended up coming back into the world anyway...without him!" Still, will he be the one to bring it all back together in the finale?!

I believe there is a GREAT DEAL of potential plot still left in the whole tale post DK and DH, depending on how Hobb wants to tell it...I think we may well see something come more firmly out of out Chalced, possibly even something from "the land that is to the south and then the east" (it may be where the Fool is originally from and possibly also the area from where the folk of the Great Sail Fleet South hail and who call Jamaillia 'West Port' ), and I agree with the thought that the Fool and Fitz are not done yet as the Fool is the love that weaves its way in and out of Fitz's long lifeline on his right hand.

Whatever it is, Verity was the last old wise man to go to Jhaampe-town so that can't be Fitz's destiny...maybe it is that Fitz will stay at home after his long life (with hopefully a lot more input into the future of the world!) and simply face the grave rather than form a simulacra artform (dragons in the stone garden, Trehaug etc) like the rest..."No wise men go to Jhaampe-town, To Climb the hill and never come down. 'Tis wiser far and much more brave, To stay at home and face the grave."

As Hobb said in FF, "It is like the anticipation that a clever minstrel evokes when he pauses, letting silence pool before sweeping into the final refrain of his song." Hobb is the minstrel and I am looking forward to the rest of her song!

[Farseer]

Just a little extra info to confirm Kelsingra all the more...

AQ - When Fitz passed the stone lions guarding the map tower stairs, "The great wooden doors were closed and had been latched, but so rotted were they that one cautious push tore the lock free. One door swung open while the other sagged gratefully down to collapse on the floor."

SOD - Later, when Tintaglia went there and passed between the stones lions, "One wide door had already collapsed. As she brushed past the other immense wooden door, a chance graze of her tail brought it slumping down in a heap of splinters and fragments."

[chriSchaeffer]

Wow! Welcome to the forums, Farseer! That pretty much puts a lid on it for me. Thanks!!

By the way, I wish there was a way to vote for (thumbs up) a post on each thread.

[Farseer]

Thanks Chris, for the welcome and comment!

Just to set the point a little deeper in cement...(I have made some edits from this post which I made previously)

When Alise refers to the hanging tapestry of Kelsingra during her discussion with Malta, Leftrin and the Traders' Council of Cassarick, she says, "There. That would be the famous map tower of Kelsingra...The map tower at Kelsingra is referred to in several scrolls, perhaps indicating that it was of more importance than some of the others."

She then goes on to say, "You can see that the map tower is in the spire of a very impressive building. The decorative frieze on the front shows an Elderling woman ploughing behind an ox. The adjacent wall, as you can see, depicts a queen dragon. I speculate that the conjunction of the two is no accident, but shows that the two of them were as important to the city as the two walls that support this main city structure. We can only wonder what was on the other two faces of the building." Note: Tintaglia mentions that the dragon is actually a ‘he’ but that is possibly due to her actual memories of the dragon, whereas Alise would only be going on from the illustration?

To finalise, Alise notes that the entire structure (the entire building which includes the map tower) is actually identified in one scroll as the Citadel of Records. Fitz himself felt that it was an administrative building of some kind...and I would expect that behind the closed doors, that he found when he went there, would be a great deal of left-behind Elderling records, possibly even in the form of memory stone cubes such as Prilkop used in the Out Island Elderling city, and also such as what Chade returned to Buckkeep with at the end of FF?

[rickbirth2]

in the map on page 1 where is kelsingr?because its a major city so where is it?

[Farseer]

G'day rickbirth2.

I'm not sure about anyone else but I have come across a large number of important destinations in the F, LST, TM, RW books and Eldering Realm-related short stories that haven't been included on the map...sometimes it can be a little frustrating I guess but I don't mind as I think it makes me read the text more carefully to then be able to pick out geographical features for comparison to the map (examples of this could be the locations of Moonseye, Trehaug, Cassarick or even significant locations in the Out Islands).

Another point for it not being on the map may be that Kelsingra is indirectly touted as 'a mythical city' throughout the RW books and if readers didn't discover the hints and clues previously offered by Fitz, Tintaglia and then Alise (as written about above), well, for most of them, they may well have spent much of the RW books still wondering if Kelsingra even existed, let alone if the dragons and their keepers etc would ever actually reach it. To include it on the map would have been a huge spoiler as it would have pre-alerted the reader that it DID indeed exist, and that large piece of suspense within the plot would have been lost.

Then again, if some of these things HAD been included on the map, by which name should they have been known eg should Trehaug be marked as 'Trehaug' or the more ancient-known 'Frengong'? For me, it's best not to have them at all so as to keep each of us guessing, a bit like the confusion experienced by the serpents and the dragons with the changes that have been wrought on their world...we're all learning together!

[rickbirth2]

well why not have an old elderling map for the map no spoilers then just shows what they already know?

[SweetFool]

There seem to be a lot of positive reactions to the Rain Wilds Chronicles, and I'm just wondering did anybody else not enjoy these books? I completely adore the Farseer, Liveship and Tawny Man trilogies but felt really disappointed after reading the Rain Wilds books. Although I enjoyed revisiting the rainwilds I felt that there was no strong plot to the books...nothing much happened, there wasn't really any action, it was mostly just Thymara/Alise/Sedric changing their ideas about themselves and their lives and to be honest I didnt feel enough attachment to the characters to care that much about their issues. It also felt like an anti-climax at the end, there were no real twists or anything.
I really am a Hobb fan, I just think that in comparison to her earlier series, the Rain Wilds books were not in the same league at all. Anybody else feel the same way?