Others' Island (spoilers all books incl RWC)

[Nuytsia]

Wow how cool to be able to word search the books!!!! *envy*
Not that I even HAVE most of the books, heh, that would be a good start....

Re Thymara marrying one of the 'princes' ., I don't think age would be too far fetched, but surely Princes tend to marry Princesses or at least nobles.
Ok not so much pirate princes!!! I'll admit tha's a possibility.

[Farseer]

Ah, but surely an Elderling would be considered nobility, particularly in the returning of the world to its true course? One only has to look at the elevated status already enjoyed by Malta and Reyn.

At the very least, Thymara will be a 'queen' simply by virtue of her being an Elderling, at least in Sintara's eyes...and her wings would have to place her in an elite group. It wouldn't be too far of a stretch then for her to possibly gain the true title of 'Queen' of the new settlement? Of course, this could clash horribly with Malta's title 'Queen of the Elderlings'!

We would have Queen Etta of the Pirate Isles; Queen Malta of the Elderlings; Queen Thymara of Kelsingra; Kettricken as Sacrifice of the Mountain Kingdom (should Eyod's rule end soonish, or possibly this would pass directly to Dutiful as he is now King of the SD?!); and Queen Elliana of the Six Duchies and Narcheska of the OutIslands (if they chnage their mind and allow her to retain that title!) .

['thul]

well, its rather natural that malta is considered a queen by "her" dragon... dragons are after all very egoistical... naturally Tintaglia will consider her elderling to be the queen... but how will she react when she encounters sintara's winged elderling?

What is most magnificent? A crested elderling, like has been seen before, or an winged elderling, unlike any elderling before it?
According to what these beings recall from dragon keeper, malta was not even a fully formed elderling, not since Tintaglia abandoned her (temporarily?)... That will also quite probably explain the reason Malta has been unable to mother a living child... if she is midway through her transformation still, then she is neither human nor elderling, and it would be impossible for her to have a child when in that condition... (one could see that from the pregnancy in Dragon Haven... the child was neither elderling nor human, but rather half serpent, half human...)

[Nuytsia]

Go the queens!
Farseer maybe being an Elderling will accord Thymara an elevated status, but I'm not sure.
In contrast to what was hinted at at the end of Liveships, I was actually a little surprised as to how in RWC's Malta didn't seem to have any special status? (above that of her family ties). I thought the dragons would have been treated a little better if she had?
I think the rainwilders were a little in awe of her but being an Elderling didnt seem to translate into a more power for her (much like the dragons themselves maybe!)
I don't really see Thymara as taking on a leadership role within Kelsingra.... if it indeed develops as a city ......the only one in the group I can see with possible future leadership potential in future is Syvle.

'thul interesting point about Malta's pregnancy troubles. I hadn't thought of it like that before (her incomplete transformation to
Elderling being in some ways like those 'touched by the rainwilds')

[Bink]

Thanks heaps for adding that reference and well met, Bink - great to have you here with us !

I agree, ebooks are WONDERFUL

If you would like to add your ebook assistance there (we really need someone to confirm that the dragon 'Skrim' is actually written within the text, and not just the listing in the front as per the posts in the thread...

Ok I haven't read it yet but I'm gonna do a search anyways... AAAAAND, I have no matches.

['thul]

'thul interesting point about Malta's pregnancy troubles. I hadn't thought of it like that before (her incomplete transformation to
Elderling being in some ways like those 'touched by the rainwilds')

indeed. It is much like that, except that she is "completely" touched by the rain wilds, so unless her change is finished by Tintaglia (or another dragon), she will most likely be unable to reproduce...

[Farseer]

If you would like to add your ebook assistance there (we really need someone to confirm that the dragon 'Skrim' is actually written within the text, and not just the listing in the front as per the posts in the thread...

Ok I haven't read it yet but I'm gonna do a search anyways... AAAAAND, I have no matches.

Noted, and a rather belated thankyou, Bink!

[Farseer]

Ok, so, I think this is going to be the most far-fetched thing I've put here on thePlenty but...*takes a big breath, lets it out and settles at the keyboard*...

Going back to the objects on Others Island, the rosebud that Kennit took from Gankis, and what it represented, has been niggling at me.

'He (Gankis) took a rosebud from his pocket. Kennit took it from him carefully, wary of the thorns.' It then goes on to describe that the rose looked real and was even fragranced like a rose should be.

Later, when in front of the Other, after Kennit crushed the glass sphere with the tumblers inside it: 'Wisely, he forebore a similar treatment for the rose. He suspected its delicate beauty was created from some material that would not give way to his boot's pressure.'

Now, the only other place where a rose is clearly mentioned in the RotE, that I can think of, is when Fool later talks about white and red roses at the end of Fool's Fate. He and Fitz are in Aslevjal and Fool is trying to get Fitz to understand how it is that a dragon can cause the transformation of a human into an Elderling or a human can cause the changing of a dragon into an Other etc: 'Have you ever seen a white rose that has grown for years in proximity to a red?...After years of such closeness, there is an exchange. It shows most plainly in the white roses, for they may take on a rosy blush, or exhibit faint tendrils of red in what used to be snowy white blossoms. It happens because there has been an exchange of the very stuff of their beings."

In this, I wonder if the rose represents the future reunion of dragons and humans in the world? The only trouble with this theory is that we aren't told its colour!!

Arrgh! Lost half of my post and can't remember what I wrote!! *sigh* It's possibly worth mentioning a couple of other things with regard to the rose in other literature:

* Dante represented his 'beloved' as a rose

* In alchemy, the rose is primarily a symbol of the operation of Conjunction, the Mystical Marriage of opposites. It represents the regeneration of separated essences and their resurrection on a new level.

* As a symbol of the Mystical Marriage on a personal level, the red rose represents a special kind of love in which one “melts away” into the beauty of another, and the old identity is surrendered for that of the beloved or a higher identity within oneself. In this sense, the rose is a symbol of complete surrender and permanent transmutation.

Sounds kind of like the relationship between Fool and Fitz (in that Fool and Fitz, and even Fitz with Nighteyes surrendered their old identities for a time...and they are 'as one'), and also what occurs between dragons and humans etc?? *grasping*!!

There are LOTS of other references eg also in alchemy, the red rose is regarded as masculine and the white feminine. The combination of both symbolizes the birth of the Philosopher’s Child, Mercury; the flower is the female and the thorns the male (obstacles guarding the female) etc and could therefore be considered as a representation of duality in nature; and Cirlot writes : "The single Rose is, in essence a symbol of completion, of consumate achievement and perfection... the mystic centre, the heart, the garden of Eros, the paradise of Dante, the beloved, the emblem of Venus and so on...."

Could any of this shed light on the Others Island rose? Throwing the duality of El and Eda and even the aspects of Sa into the mix, let alone those of Fool/Amber/Beloved! Or is it more personal to Kennit?

Though it possibly belongs in another thread, I wonder if what Fool had to say about the white and red roses could also be used as an analogy for what occurs between he and Fitz (in that being around Fitz, he is reminded more often of what it is like to be human) as well as humans and dragons? Could it even go further and allude to the fact that the more change Fool encourages, and therefore the more physical changes he personally undergoes, he is actually becoming more and more human each time, or is he changing to something different altogether? All very interesting...may mean something, may mean nothing !!!

[Nuytsia]

Ok, so, I think this is going to be the most far-fetched thing I've put here on thePlenty but...*takes a big breath, lets it out and settles at the keyboard*...

*grabs popcorn and reads on*


Hmm I can't remember the exact part about the rose on Others Island .... but your quote:
"He (Gankis) took a rosebud from his pocket. Kennit took it from him carefully, wary of the thorns.' It then goes on to describe that the rose looked real and was even fragranced like a rose should be."

just made me think how typical of Kennit to be 'wary of the thorns' .... !! (not that its the point of your post, but it says a lot about his personality!)

Love all the references about roses, but I cannot shed any more light on the exact nature of the symbolism of the one found on Others Island I'm afraid.

Though it possibly belongs in another thread, I wonder if what Fool had to say about the white and red roses could also be used as an analogy for what occurs between he and Fitz (in that being around Fitz, he is reminded more often of what it is like to be human) as well as humans and dragons? Could it even go further and allude to the fact that the more change Fool encourages, and therefore the more physical changes he personally undergoes, he is actually becoming more and more human each time, or is he changing to something different altogether? All very interesting...may mean something, may mean nothing !!!

Quite possible, it DOES seem that the goings on between the dragons and their keepers in RWC do involve in some cases, strong influences on each other.
I am not sure about the Fool's transformations making him more human.... I guess I don't necessarily see Prillkop as more human and he's all the way to black. Not that I can really know for sure what he is like ...... or that he is necessarily what the Fool will become (but I assumed it was).

[Farseer]

*grabs popcorn and reads on*

I'm sure it wasn't as exciting as you expected!!

I am not sure about the Fool's transformations making him more human.... I guess I don't necessarily see Prillkop as more human and he's all the way to black. Not that I can really know for sure what he is like ...... or that he is necessarily what the Fool will become (but I assumed it was).

Yes, it IS a mystery that I hope (please Robin!) will be answered. I expect that Fool will transform beyond the 'black' phase as he has paved the way for the greatest changes...his Catalyst has even caused change beyond his perceived lifetime?

Hmm...it seems that serpents have a She Who Remembers for each few generations but each generation no longer requires her once they have located the Rain River to become dragons, as they then contain the fullness of their memories (firstly as a serpent so they can find their way to the cocooning grounds and then as a dragon, for once they emerge they behold the memories via the womb wood). Each generation of humans has the White Prophet (who base their prophecies not on the future so much as the past, much as a SWR does?), whose lifetime spans a few of those generations. It could be assumed then that, once a human has reached full Elderling status and holds full understanding, they too would no longer require the services of a White Prophet? Of course, this arrangement had changed to a more complicated state post-cataclysm?

Ok, BACK to Others Island...

When people seek the prophecies or sooth-saying of an Other from the Island, they place two gold coins on its tongue. While I think we have firmly determined that they get most, if not all, of their 'far-seeing' ability from the waters taken from around She Who Remembers, WHY do they ask for a coin payment? Of what use is gold to an Other?

How will their role have changed now that She Who Remembers has been released? They were still present on the island and treasures were still being placed/washed up on to the shore when Fitz and Dutiful visited...

Elsewhere on thePlenty we have talked about the role of the Others throughout the realm's history eg as Abominations, was their task to look after the eggs/serpents laid by the dragons? etc. Interestingly, after Kennit had asked an Other (the Other who spoke Kennit's prophecy) if the treasures of the beach belonged to the Others it replied,'We are but caretakers here."

In this, the Other clearly acknowledged that they held a caretaking role...but for who?