Emotions in the Elderling Realm (SPOILERS all books)

[Chrischa]

About the whole idea of a person's nature as not being something he or she can change, I've always been a little bit enamoured of the fable of the Fox and the Scorpion.

Ah! I don't know where you heard it, but I'm immediately going; Star Trek, Voyager, when Chakotey explains to the captian why the Borg will definately betray them in the end. Love that episode.

LOL Farseer, about you not being able to hate them anymore, that made me laugh.

Lord Punctual, I completely agree with what you're saying about Althea and her way of life on her father's ship. And the worst thing is, Kyle does try to explain it to her but because of her own one-way thinking and her own stubbornness she doesn't listen. Reminds me a lot of Harry Potter having to take lessons from Snape in book five... exactly the same happens there.

[Lord Punctual]

Well, I heard it originally as a kid, along with all the other fables (you know, Sour Grapes, All your Eggs in One Basket, The Crow and the Water Jug) but I was extremely thrilled when I heard it in that episode of Voyager. Oh, those Borg.

[Farseer]

There are also quite a few things from the Tawny Man trilogy (which I actually read first) that got to me. Like when Fitz found Lord Golden's skin. Poor Fitz.

Right here is evidence that I am thinking on these books WAY TOO MUCH and attributing importance to inconsequential things! When I first read this I instantly thought, "Wha?! I didn't read THAT! How could I have missed something so important? Lord Golden's skin? As though he shed it like a reptile (which, you have to admit, kinda fits with the whole reptilian thing we have going on in the RotE, and the fact that the mind tends to shed the skin of the body/trancends it within the Skill River!)?! When did THAT happen?"

Of course, now that I have re-read it after a little shut-eye, I realise you are simply referring to the dead body of Beloved, as Fitz found it on Aslevjal ! No need to elaborate further, unless you'd like to, of course!

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Oh ! To take this another step further, it could be said that each time the characters change their identities eg Fool and Fitz, it is like shedding their skin, or even going through a metamorphic stage such as is experienced by the serpents/dragons...they, too, change their appearance along with their names when they change from serpent to dragon form. Needless to say, Beloved does go through a skin-shedding event very literally during each 'changing time', right down to the peeling skin...VERY reptilian-like!

[Farseer]

On the Nighteyes thing, I was really disturbed at the scene where Fitz brings him back from the dead at the creek. It was so clearly the last thing he wanted ..... and felt so unnatural when you considered it through Nighteyes' eyes.

I felt the same thing, Nuytsia, though it is interesting to note how Bolt berated Wintrow when he was unable to heal himself, as though healing, and therefore performing healings via the Skill or the Wit, was the natural order of things (as possibly it is from a dragon perspective...a perspective most likely not shared with the rest of the animal kingdom!).

[Farseer]

You place Malta in the same list as Kennit, Greft and Regal? Wow, you really didn't like her, did you?

No, I didn't. I REALLY, REALLY didn't (you can safely say that I went through a storm of emotions regarding Malta, particularly early on...I just thought she was such an awful person, especially as she had no reason to be!). Despite these very negative feelings about her, you have all made me realise, though, how 'all or nothing' I can be when it comes to divvying up my loyalty and affection (!!) and so have turned my veiwpoint of her somewhat.

I also see now that, for her to eventually become a true Elderling 'queen', she had to have and/or display some strong and not always likable characteristics (in much the same way that Sintara can appear to be overly arrogant and confident in her strength). Still, even in conceding that point, *spoiler for latter half of Dragon Haven *

Spoiler

Thymara managed to have this strength of character without also compromising other qualities, such as kindness and honesty etc and, in this, I think that she and Malta differ greatly. That is why I feel much happier for Thymara to receive such lofty rewards than I do Malta.

[Nuytsia]

On the Nighteyes thing, I was really disturbed at the scene where Fitz brings him back from the dead at the creek. It was so clearly the last thing he wanted ..... and felt so unnatural when you considered it through Nighteyes' eyes.

I felt the same thing, Nuytsia, though it is interesting to note how Bolt berated Wintrow when he was unable to heal himself, as though healing, and therefore performing healings via the Skill or the Wit, was the natural order of things (as possibly it is from a dragon perspective...a perspective most likely not shared with the rest of the animal kingdom!).

I think it's probably partly that dragons DO think a lot differently than 'other' animals, but also that healing someone who has been injured but would otherwise be healthy is probably seen differently than trying to bring someone back from death due to old age. I really do think that humans are obviously much happier about the prospect of extending their lives artificially than Nighteyes was, and dragons, well, I'm sure dragons have no real need to extend their lives any more and I think they feel a sense of immortality with their memories going forward even though their physical body dies.

Geeeees Lord P and others, I have no such sympathy for Kyle Haven. It's not as if misogyny is his only fault!!!! I 'mean his treatment of Wintrow just for STARTERS.
Also, I find it strange that most people seem to think Althea was such an incompetent spoiled brat on the ship. I never got that impression at all (although I'm not able to produce evidence!!! just my impression from my one and only read of LST). I think to say she was only onboard 'because Ephron didn't have a son' is a bit harsh. Could she not become a competant crew member anyway? Or is there some reason she truly could not because she is female? (so she's just playing around or something)

Also, re comments on Kyle, I think there's a difference between someone being the way they are because 'it's their nature' and being the way they are 'because society pushed them into that way of thinking'.
I surely hope humans can think critically about the way their society works and not be a mindless slave to it. I don't think it's an 'excuse' for Kyle's behaviour. He might be from Chalced, but people do move around and he now lives in Bingtown and is married to a woman from Bingtown. Some people in that situation might be open to new ways of thinking. Others, not so much! Kyle I'm sure liked his ways of thinking because it made him feel justified in imposing his own wishes on anyone around him who happened to be female.

[Chrischa]

That's a very interesting post, Nuytsia, with so many point I want to address that I'm not going to start quoting them all.

Let's see; concerning the way dragons and humans regard extending their lives. It's actually very interesting because in real life, humans are believed to be the only species on Earth that are aware of their own death. More then that, psychologists believe that all our other fears are derived from that one, basic fear.
Animals, on the other hand, are believed to live in unawareness that their existence will end, also because they live only in the now, just like Nighteyes does.

So it makes perfect sense for Fitz to not only try and artificially extent Nigheyes his life, but also for him to fret over his partner's old age. And it also makes perfect sense for Nighteyes to not only be highly offended by Fitz his thoughts and actions, but for him to suffer greatly because of this. His sharing of thoughts with a human has taken away his animals' carefree way of living, it has given him a sense of and also a fear of the future, and it has taken him outside his animal vision of death as a simple part of life. As Fitz himself points out at one point, nature is a constant circle of small deaths and births, so I suppose animals would be aware of death but only as a distant part of life, not something to worry about at all, maybe not even as something that relates to themselves.

Actually, I wonder why any animal would ever be so stupid as to bond with a human. But that aside.

Concerning Kyle Haven; yes, I agree that misogyny is far from his only fault, but his other faults in my eyes tie very much in with the other thing I said about him; that he doesn't see free-thinking family members, only roles, and for him it's unthinkable that anyone would not shape their life to fit the role their family has destined for them. So he's constantly trying to force that Chalcedean way of thinking onto a Bingtown, rebellious family. Not a good match.

And I do think that Kyle has somewhat altered his way of thinking to fit Bingtown's way of doing things, hence the way he (in his own warped way) takes great pains to try and explain to his family members why they should comply with the roles he has set out for them. I fully believe that that alone is a huge step for him, and that in Chalced such explanation is never even given. Just one day; son, come in, you're going to be a monk from now in, see you in ten years, bye.

And about Althea; it's actually her own realisation during her time on the Reaper that Kyle was right about her being a spoiled captain's child, coupled with a subtle hint here and there, that makes me think of her as such. Like when she thinks about taking a little nap on the sun-soaked deck next. (I've forgotten when exactly that happens.) But can you imagine any other sailor taking a little nap during his shift?
I don't think it has anything to do with her being female, quite the opposite, I think that because of her sex she constantly feels she has to perform better then the others to prove herself as a sailor. But I also think that during her father's time, she has been mislead about life aboard a ship.

If anything, I haven't got a very high opinion of Ronica and Ephron as parents. Not only did they first raise Althea as a boy to then, as she comes of age, tell her that she's a girl after all so she'd better start behaving as one, they also didn't notice any of Kyle's shortcomings until it was too late. You can't tell me that they never noticed anything about his Chalcedean way of thinking. I can very well imagine the evenings at the Vestrit home before Ephron fell ill, when Kyle constantly tried to talk to Ephron alone about the family business, cold-shouldering Ronica completely when she gave her opinion. And that would have just been one of the signs. Then, after Ephron dies and Ronica finally sees Kyle's true colours, she puts the blame at Keffria's feet. They haven't acted fairly with either of their daughters.

[Nuytsia]

Cool!
I must admit I do wonder exactly how Nighteyes 'thinks'. He is truly an animal (they can't possibly think in the same way we do) but he communicates to Fitz with very human style language. As you say, animals seem to have no specific concept of their own impending death, but Nighteyes must understand to some extent.
I agree, the animal/human bond seems to be problematic for the animal especially! I think it's in a lot of ways far worse for a wild animal. I felt so sorry for Nighteyes being lonely when he was stuck in that deserted cabin thing when Fitz lived in Buckkeep (but Nighteyes himself didn't seem to see that as a problem), and later the way he was torn between wanting to live with a real wolf pack and be with Fitz. At first I thought Black Rolf treated Fitz a bit harshly (how would Fitz have known what he was supposed to be doing when no-one ever taught him before?) but now I think I see where he was coming from in his concern for Nighteyes.
I shouldn't be too harsh on Kyle, he was punished pretty badly!!!!!

It's funny for me to think of Ronica and Ephron as bad parents in the way you describe. I think I totally saw through Althea's POV and hated them for not letting her take over the ship - but I didn't think about their broader actions in her upbringing. When I read DK I actually thought Alise seemed really unprepared for her 'role' in life actually, and I thought geees Kefria (or Malta even) would have known what to do! I just assumed well Althea didn't want that. Then again, I supposed Alise didn't seem to either, but she didn't seem to have an alternative in mind.
I DID wonder what Ronica and Ephron were thinking letting Keffria marry Kyle Haven in the first place!!! (as you indicated) I mean geees. I can only assume Keffria was a lot more like Malta in her youth and demanded her way!! (or something). But there's no way I'd let that guy into my family - especially as my heir!

[Farseer]

Now here's another couple of posts I was meant to respond to...re Althea being a spoiled child! * adds it to to-do list for later *

I have a terrible habit of going back to research something simple in my RotE books, only to find I then have to keep on reading to the end of the book . I don't know how many times I have read AQ, in portions or its entirety, but I still broke down and cried (and cried!) when I read Fitz and Verity's farewell the other day!

I also wanted to give Serilla a good whack with something thick and solid when I reached the part in SOM where she objected to Ronica helping herself to a shawl of Davad's dead wife (Doril?), especially since she had taken over Davad's entire house and belongings ! What a piece of work is Serilla...and I say 'is' because I didn't think she'd changed much after everything that had happened, going on her later actions and comments as part of the envoy to the Six Duchies in the TM series!!

[Nuytsia]

Heheh Serilla , she certainly is a 'piece of work'! Then again, compared to the other people we know from Jamailla she is quite nice!!!!!