Elderling Creations Theory (Spoilers through all the books and Dragon Haven)

[Gielske]

I dont believe elderling can't have baby's. In SoD Tintaglia says "Reyn, if you find a mate, and if you can father children, you will get the next generation of Elderlings" Dragon have long memories, so she wouldn't say that if elderling can't get baby's.

The traders in Bingtown and the Rain Wilds do have trouble having children. But my personal opinion is more that this is because of the toxic water and other living conditions they live in. And ofcourse they abandom baby's if they don't look human enough and call it a miscarriage. This doesn't mean the baby is actually stilborn

[Valarya]

I dont believe elderling can't have baby's. In SoD Tintaglia says "Reyn, if you find a mate, and if you can father children, you will get the next generation of Elderlings" Dragon have long memories, so she wouldn't say that if elderling can't get baby's.

I most certainly agree Elderlings can have babies. I don't think that point was ever contested. But I suspect Tintaglia assumed she'd be around helping with the new dragons and whatnot. It's a good quote to bring to mind, though.

I don't know if you've clicked on the CoD spoilers 'thul and I were throwing around, but there's some interesting points in there, too.

The traders in Bingtown and the Rain Wilds do have trouble having children. But my personal opinion is more that this is because of the toxic water and other living conditions they live in. And ofcourse they abandom baby's if they don't look human enough and call it a miscarriage. This doesn't mean the baby is actually stilborn

Again, if you looked at the spoilers in the last two posts you'll see I completely disagree with this. I think every one born "heavily touched by the Rain Wilds" are part-Elderling... changed to partial not-human by close proximity to so much dragon magic.

[Gielske]

I'm listening to DH now. After I'm through CoD I'll read the spoilers but not sooner. However for now I'll refrain from joining this discussion until I've done that

[Valarya]

However for now I'll refrain from joining this discussion until I've done that

Nooooo!!!! Please join in ALL the discussions!! We like discussing every point of this story, not just the new parts.

[Gielske]

I'll wait. It won't be long. My ipod plays over 8-12 hours a day, so I'll be through the RWC's in no time

['thul]

It is common knowledge that Elderlings can have children. Tintaglia said so in the liveship books. 'thul's theory around inability of having children ranges around those that are neither human nor elderling, but in transition in between. More about it within spoiler.

Spoiler

These beings agree that those touched by the rain wilds are partial elderlings. most of them are no more than a few percent, though.
The presumption that elderlings of the stage Reyn/Malta is at cannot have viable children comes from the fact that Tarman had to help it remain alive. As for why tarman knew that? Thats fairly simple... Not even close to all the old era elderlings were born that way. thus it would be natural dragon knowledge that elderlings of certain stages cannot produce live children. In early stages (Jerd, DH), the child becomes more serpent than dragon than human.

These beings believe that in fully changed Elderlings, their reproductive systems have changed sufficiently to reflect dragon tendencies. Where humans can (relatively) easily become pregnant, long-lived races do not have quite so easy a task of it. Dragons have to wait over a decade after cocooning before they can lay eggs. Thus it would stand to reason that fully changed Elderlings simply have to work harder at becoming pregnant, but once pregnant and within reach of dragonkind, the children should be viable most of the time.
Before they are fully formed, Elderling bodies are still in transition. Since the changes are on the genetic level, the DNA of a transitioning Elderling/human is unstable. When DNA is unstable, it is hard for the body to replicate it, since one strand might not be the same just a few days later.
One thing 'thul do wonder about is how long the periods of gestation are in Elderlings and dragons. Obviously eggs aren't laid instantly after mating. Considering how suddenly Malta's birthing came upon her and how (relatively) easy it was, the period of gestation is probably shorter than it is for humans. Shorter gestation typically means smaller infants. The potential presence of claws also supports this as a good idea.

[Valarya]

Spoiler

The presumption that elderlings of the stage Reyn/Malta is at cannot have viable children comes from the fact that Tarman had to help it remain alive. As for why tarman knew that? Thats fairly simple... Not even close to all the old era elderlings were born that way. thus it would be natural dragon knowledge that elderlings of certain stages cannot produce live children. In early stages (Jerd, DH), the child becomes more serpent than dragon than human.

Gah, 'thul beings I still completely disagree with you.

CoD spoilers

Just because Tarman knows what to do doesn''t prove it's based on Malta & Reyn's stage-of-Elderling. It only proves that it has happened before, and Tarman knew what to do.

It is YOU theory that it's because of DNA progression in the parents.

It is MY theory that the issue arose due to the fact the child is not fully human, period. And needs to be touched by a dragon. I believe that child would be changed no matter what "stage" malta & reyn are at in their Elderling-changes.

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Spoiler

One thing 'thul do wonder about is how long the periods of gestation are in Elderlings and dragons. Obviously eggs aren't laid instantly after mating. Considering how suddenly Malta's birthing came upon her and how (relatively) easy it was, the period of gestation is probably shorter than it is for humans. Shorter gestation typically means smaller infants. The potential presence of claws also supports this as a good idea.

I think you're going way off track with this, but that's just my opinion.

['thul]

Spoiler

These beings agree the child would probably be changed no matter what stage its parents is at. They theorize further on possible effects of the change upon reproduction.

Length of gestation will naturally affect childbirth. If a child is still fairly small, it will naturally take its mother less effort to push it out than if it is large.
If you think a bit on how egg-laying creatures develop, you'll realize that much (or most) of the development happens after it has left its mother. Since dragons lay eggs and humans give live birth, Elderlings will most likely be something in between. Obviously a lot of the details here cannot just be looked at through the lens of science, but also have to be filtered with magic. The dragons, humans and elderlings of the Realm of the Elderlings are far more genetic and scientific in nature than is common most fantasy universes. Dragons don't just use magic to fly, but have to develop wings sufficiently to do so.

[Valarya]

I like your response, 'thul beings.

[Bleach3825]

WOW. A lot to talk about. I'll bring up what first brought me here and that is that I think the link between Dragon and their keepers is a lot more Wit and much less skill. Think about the two dragons that didn't really have a mind when they first took up up the Rain Wild River but after bonding Rapskal and Sedric they improved more and more until they were able to speak like the other dragons and humans. Isn't this the same way that Nighteyes and other animals who have bonded with the wit also become smarter and more human then their counterparts? And while the dragons would be not be happy to hear it. They are very much human thinking. All that power and ability would swell any humans head. However, Not all animals have the ability to bond so you have to find one that is both capable and wants such a thing. Fitz's talks about this a few times in "Golden Fool". One good example that comes to mind is his horse "Myblack" and how he said right away that he knew he would never be able to bond with him and that the horse didn't even really like Fitz's trying to speak with him so he just used more animal impulses to get the horse to do what he wanted. This is similar to how the dragons have said that not all humans are good for bonding but I think that might just be more because they know what's in a person heart and if they are a good person or not.